This is the last part to the Preliminary Hearing. See previous posts for Parts 1-3.
![PrelimHearing]()
(PART 4 OF 4)
This is a continuation of Volume 2 of the 2 volume set of the Preliminary Hearing shown above.
Contrary to the claims of Stefani Koorey, this transcription is my own creation. Harry Widdoes did transcribe the same document, but that does not mean they can make false claim to ownership of MY work nor can I to THEIRS.
The Preliminary Hearing of the Lizzie Borden case was created in hard copy format by me in early 2000, designed and produced as seen above. I used to sell these on eBay and later just gave them out to friends interested in researching the case.
The source document used was purchased by me in the 1990’s from the Fall River Historical Society who sold unbound sheets of photocopies of this document. Their source was the copy once owned by Andrew J. Jennings, Lizzie’s attorney, which contained his handwritten notes written on back of the pages or on the margins. The hardbound copy I created, illustrated above, includes those handwritten notes. The electronic copy which begins on the following page, does not. This was transcribed by me in 2001.
Faye Musselman © 2001 All rights reserved.
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PRELIMINARY HEARING
STENOGRAPHER’S MINUTES
VOLUME II
COMMONWEALTH Mr. Knowlton
vs.
LIZZIE A. BORDEN
Annie M. White, Stenographer
New Bedford, Mass
Page 340
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see him do anything more with the axes?
A. No Sir.
Q. How many did you see?
A. One.
Q. Only one axe?
A. One hatchet. I did not see any axes at all. I saw him looking at this one; it seemed to be a hatchet. I do
not think the handle was more than 24 inches, something like that. He laid that right down by his feet
there, and came over where I was.
Q. Give us as good a description as you can of that hatchet, because we cannot get at it just yet.
A. I cannot give an accurate description of that hatchet. I said “that looks all right Mike”. I thought it
was a large blade for such a short handle; but anything more, I did not notice.
Q. Did you notice the head of it?
A. I did not.
Q. Could you tell whether it had a claw on the head of it or not?
A. No Sir, I would not say.
Q. How long before you came up stairs?
A. Right away then?
Q. That finished your search of the cellar at that time?
A. Yes Sir, and every other time; I have not been in the cellar since.
Q. When, if at all, did you see Officer Medley?
A. I saw him in the front entry when I came up.
Q. From the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the first time you had seen him?
A. That is the first time I had seen him.
Q. He was not there when you got back from the telephone?
A. I do not want to say he was; I am not positive.
Q. You did not see him?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not see him when you and the other officer were searching through the house, because you
went through the attic, and down through the house, and then down cellar?
A. When I came up, he was talking to the servant girl; I remember that; that was the first time I had seen
him.
Q. Now with reference to this fence which was in the rear of the Borden lot, and makes a portion of the
dividing line between the Borden place and the Chagnon premises, that runs north and south?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The barn is in one corner, so to speak, of the lot, is not it?
A. Whose barn?
Q. Mr. Borden’s barn.
A. Yes Sir.
Page 341
Q. Toward the other corner is this pile of lumber in the Borden lot?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That pile of lumber comes within a foot or a foot and a half of the top of the fence?
A. Yes, I think it does.
Q. When one drops down on the other side of the fence, he is then in the Chagnon premises?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The Chagnon premises front on Third street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The front part of the Chagnon premises correspond, a portion of them, to Mr. Borden’s lot?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Dr. Chagnon’s house being further north?
A. Yes.
Q. Then the barn of Mr. Borden’s?
A. Yes Sir, a little.
Q. Then further north still, is the driveway into Dr. Chagnon’s premises?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Dr. Chagnon’s barn does not come back entirely to the line of that fence, I suppose?
A. No.
Q. Do you understand it does not stand flush up against the fence?
A. Dr. Chagnon’s barn, no.
Q. So if one were over the fence from the Borden side towards the Chagnon’s, he could go along the side
of the fence by the Chagnon barn, and come out into that driveway; no trouble about that, is there?
A. No.
Q. If you got over into the Chagnon lot, there would be no trouble in going from back of the Chagnon
barn out the driveway?
A. If I said that, I want to correct myself. I do not know whether there is an open space between the
back of Dr. Chagnon’s barn and the fence, or not.
Q. I mean the fence that fences his lot.
A. I do not know.
Q. Is there a piazza on more than one side of Dr. Chagnon’s house?
A. I think not.
Q. Have not you been there today?
A. I was there to that one, that is all.
Q. Were you there at the east side of the house today?
A. Yes Sir, the front.
Q. The portion of the house that fronts on Third street?
A. The east is the front.
Q. It fronts on Third street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The piazza was on the east side of the house?
A. No, on the south side of the house.
Page 342
Q. Is there any piazza on the front side of the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or on the north side of the house?
A. I do not think there is on the north side of the house.
Q. Where is the front door, on the south or east side of the house?
A. On the east, facing Third street.
Q. This piazza you saw today is on the south side of the house?
A. On the south east corner, facing the house, right on the south east corner.
Q. Does the front door have any communication with that piazza?
A. No Sir, I do not think it does.
Q. Was there any door that opens off of that piazza, I am asking now about the piazza you saw today?
A. I do not think so, no sir.
Q. What does open off that piazza, if anything? Was there a French window, or low windows, or
windows on the level with it?
A. That is my recollection of it; I do not know of any door there.
Q. Did you go to the Chagnon barn?
A. No Sir.
Q. I am still asking you about the Chagnon premises that you visited today.
A. No Sir, I did not.
Q. Which way did you get to the Changon house today, by going on Third street?
A. From Pleasant right up Third all the way.
Q. Whether you did not see a piazza on the east side of the house as well as the south side?
A. No Sir, the east side of the house has the door there, and steps going up, with a little roof over, if you
call that a piazza.
Q. A roof over the door?
A. Yes Sir, a little out over the steps.
Q. Just a little porch?
A. Yes Sir, there is no piazza on the front.
Q. Did you go around the north side of the house where that drive is?
A. No Sir, I merely looked up the drive from the street, that is all.
Q. Passing to the south, through the Chagnon open lot there, you come to what premises then?
A. Mr. Crowe’s.
Q. And on Second street whose premises correspond to Crowe’s premises, Kelley’s?
A. Dr. Kelley’s, yes.
Q. Is there any lot in between, in the rear of each of those houses?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whose is that?
A. Do you mean is there a lot in the rear of Dr. Kelley’s?
Q. Yes, and of Crowe’s.
A. No Sir.
Q. Those two lots make up the entire space between the two streets?
Page 343
A. Dr. Kelley’s and John Crowe’s, yes sir; they are divided with a fence and a gateway going from one to
the other.
Q. If I understand you, the first time you got to the house, you did not see Miss Lizzie?
A. No Sir.
Q. The second time you got there, the only time you did see her, was in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir. She was sitting down, and Miss Russell or Mrs. Churchill was fanning her.
Q. Was that the time when you talked with her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you remember how she was dressed?
A. I have a faint recollection of the dress.
Q. What is that faint recollection?
A. I think it was a calico dress. I cannot describe it much; something similar to that lady’s over there
writing, that kind of stuff, whatever you call it.
Q. You mean the material, you do not mean the color?
A. I mean the material. I thought the bosom of it was starched stiff.
Q. What was its color, I mean more particularly?
A. Well, it was blue of that kind, or a light blue, a little blue.
Q. Was it a dress that gave you the idea that it was the same color the whole of it?
A. No, it was figured printed spotted.
Q. A print dress with figures in it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The general color of it was blue?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Light blue?
A. No.
Q. Do you see any such color here?
A. They call them challies, or something like that; I do not know.
Q. Well, you are showing considerable knowledge. It was a figured challie then?
A. I would not say it was a challie; but it was figured.
Q. What I am trying to get at is the general color of that dress. I understand you to say it was light blue?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then you were a little uncertain; I thought if you could see some color here —- Do you see a neck tie
near you, or the dress back of Mr. Jennings?
A. I do not see anything just now that would compare to it.
Q. You do not see any color here that reminds you of it?
A. No Sir, I would not say, unless it was Mr. Spear’s neck tie; something like that, with blue spots.
Q. It had a white ground?
Page 344
A. There was white to it.
Q. There was white to it?
A. I thought so; it was of that stuff.
Q. I suppose you are not very sure about this any way; you have only a general impression of it?
A. I cannot describe that dress. I have a faint recollection of it, but I cannot describe it right. I think there
was a blue spot in it, a spot as large as the rubber on Mr. Jennings pencil I thought, or nearly as big.
Q. Did you observe her dress otherwise, whether she had shoes on?
A. No Sir I did not.
Q. Or her hair?
A. I thought her hair was all right.
Q. Done up properly?
A. It was done up.
Q. Did you yourself observe any marks of blood on her, or spots or anything of that sort?
A. No Sir.
RE-DIRECT
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Wont you tell me where you saw that hatchet taken from?
A. On the right near the furnace, near where the coal was. It was a shelf that ran east and west, I think,
about five or six feet high. It seemed to me he put his hand right around the corner, like that, and took it
down.
Q. Who put his hand up and got it?
A. The girl and Mr. Mullaly; they were both there, and were reaching up.
Q. Did you see any ax taken from there?
A. Not from there I did not.
RE-CROSS
Q. (Mr. Adams) Did you have any talk with Bridget about the dress Miss Lizzie wore?
A. Not about the dress.
Q. Was it in this same conversation in the kitchen there, I was asking you about before you left the
stand, that you asked her who worked on the farm?
A. Miss Borden, yes sir.
Q. Precisely what was that?
A. As near as I can put it, I says “Miss Borden, is there a Portuguese working for your father over on
the farm across the River?” She says “no sir; Mr. Eddy and Mr. Johnson are the only men working for
my father; and neither of them would hurt my father.”
Page 345
(Mr. Doherty recalled)
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Did you take anything from the person of Mr. Borden?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you examine to see what there was there?
A. No Sir; I asked Dr. Dolan.
Q. You did not make a personal examination?
A. No Sir.
MICHAEL MULLALY
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. Michael Mullaly.
Q. You are a police officer?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was you first called to this case?
A. August 4th.
Q. What time of day?
A. I did not notice the time when I started for there.
Q. When did you first take note of time?
A. When I arrived there.
Q. What was that?
A. It was 23 minutes to 12.
Q. Who did you go with, if anybody?
A. I went with officer Allen.
Q. Do you know whether Allen had been up there before, or not?
A. I believe that he told me that he had been there before.
Q. All you know is what he told you. How did you get the time when you got there?
A. I took my watch out, and looked at it.
Q. Who and what did you find when you got there?
A. When I got there I saw Mrs. Churchill, and Miss Russell, and Bridget Sullivan, and Dr. Bowen and
Miss Lizzie Borden.
Q. Where was Miss Borden?
A. Miss Borden was in the room north of where Mr. Borden laid on the sofa.
Q. Was there a dining table in it?
A. I did not notice.
Q. What did you do, did you have any talk with Miss Borden then?
A. I told Mrs. Churchill –
Q. Was Miss Borden present?
A. No Sir.
Q. You had some talk with Mrs. Churchill?
A. I did.
Q. Then what did you do?
Page 346
A. I then went to Miss Lizzie Borden.
Q. Did you have any talk with her?
A. Yes, I did. I told her that I was sent there to get a report of what had happened.
Q. Go on, and tell all that was said.
A. She told me that she had been out of doors, and when she came in, she found her father dead on the
sofa. I then inquired of her if she knew what kind of property her father had on him. She said she did.
She told me that her father had a silver watch and chain; he also had a pocket book with money in it, and
he had a gold ring on his little finger. By that time Officer Doherty had appeared in the door, and I told
him to look and see if Mr. Borden has the property on him.
Q. Did you go with Doherty to look?
A. No, I did not.
(Mr. Adams) I will admit that he did look.
Q. What did you do then?
A. He reported to me that his watch—
(Mr. Adams) I will admit that.
A. He reported to me that his watch and chain was on him.
Q. And his pocket book?
A. He did not say anything about the pocket book.
Q. Did you see his chain taken away, or did you take it?
A. I did not see; he stood in the door way.
Q. Did you have any more talk with Miss Lizzie then?
A. I did, I inquired of her if she knew whether there was a hatchet or an ax on the premises; and she said
yes.
Q. What then?
A. She told me that Bridget Sullivan would show it to me in the cellar. I then came out, and I went up
stairs where Mrs. Borden laid on the floor in a pool of blood.
Q. Was that before or after Doherty went out?
A. That was when I left Miss Lizzie.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I came down stairs, and we went from there up into the attic and searched all of those rooms.
Q. What do you mean by searching?
A. Bridget Sullivan went up there with us, and opened each room, and let us look into them. We looked
into each room, and she told us who occupied them. We went from one room to the other, and came
down stairs.
Q. What did you do in the rooms?
A. We searched, looked all around.
Q. What do you mean by “looked all around?”
A. Looked around the rooms.
Q. Looked in the drawers &c?
A. No Sir, just went in and looked around, and did not see anything and came out.
Q. Did you open any closet doors, or anything of that kind?
Page 347
A. We looked in some closets.
Q. Up in the attic?
A. I would not say whether there was a closet in the attic or not.
Q. Did you look under the beds? And all around the rooms?
A. We looked under the beds and all around the rooms.
Q. Who were you looking for?
A. We were looking for the man, or the person who committed the deed, and the weapon it was
committed with.
Q. Those were the two things you were looking for?
A. Those were the things.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Came from there, and went into the cellar.
Q. Did you go into the second story of the house?
A. When I came down stairs, I met Bridget Sullivan, and then we went down stairs to look for the axes.
Q. Did Bridget go with you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What took place down there?
A. We went down cellar, and went along to the left.
Q. Did Bridget lead the way?
A. Bridget led the way to the left. We went in, and in a small box, I would not say whether it was a
partition across there, or not, but she reached up, and took two hatchets out of this box, and passed
them to me. We came out of there, and went into an apartment south of the furnace, I believe, or hot
water heater, I believe it was. In there we found two axes. I took them down.
Q. Where were they?
A. They were on the south side of the cellar up against the wall. I would not say whether they were on
a shelf, or whether there was something put there to hold them up. I know I reached up and took them
down.
Q. Was this a covered box, these two hatchets were in?
A. No, the top was open.
Q. Did you take any notice of the hatchets when you got them down?
A. I did.
Q. What did you notice about them?
A. One was larger than the other.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. On the large one, there was a small rust spot.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. That was all I noticed. On the axes, both handles were covered with ashes.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. Then while I was in the wash room, I believe it was Mr. Doherty called my attention to some cloths
in a pail.
Q. Skip them now. You looked at them?
A. We took them out, and looked at them, and put them back again. No, I wont say I put them back
again.
Page 348
(Mr. Adams) You disclaim any connection?
(Mr. Knowlton) For this hearing to this Court, I make no claim about those things, whatever. I do not
bind myself to any accidental future discoveries. So far as I am at present advised, I make no claim.
Q. Go on, Mr. Mullaly.
A. I left those axes on the cellar floor in the wash room.
Q. As you go down, you have a kind of walk there, and a passageway that leads right to the water
closet, if I remember?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you go along that walk to go to the place where you found the hatchet, or steer off from there?
A. Go towards Second street.
Q. Go by the water closet?
A. No, just before you get to the water closet, on the south side of the house, we found those hatchets.
Q. In that room that is a passageway?
A. It looked to me like an alley way.
Q. The first thing you get into when you get down the cellar stairs is what I should call, the same as you
do, an alley way; is that right?
A. Yes Sir, that is the way it looked to me.
Q. Was it in that alleyway you found those things?
A. No Sir, I found them in the cellar further to the southward.
Q. Which side of the house are the back steps on, the north side?
A. They are on the north side.
Q. You go right down cellar from that door; now where is the water closet, towards the street?
A. Towards the street.
Q. You do not go quite so far as the water closet, before you get to those hatchets?
A. Just before you get to the water closet, we went into this department in the cellar where there was a
lot of wood piled up.
Q. That was a wood house then?
A. Yes Sir. We carried out the hatchets, and put them on the cellar floor.
Q. Hatchets and axes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you afterwards see them in Mr. Dolan’s hands?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they the same ones?
A. They were the same ones I carried out.
Q. Did you see what the condition of the door that leads from the cellar to the back yard was?
A. That was shut. Officer Doherty tried to get out there, and I believe he found it locked.
Q. Did you see him do that?
A. I saw him do it.
Q. Locked how, or did you not notice?
Page 349
A. He went up and tried it, and came back.
Q. Did you search any of the rooms in the second or first story of the house when you were looking for
the man or the weapon?
A. I think we searched one part of it.
Q. Which part?
A. I could not tell whether the kitchen or what it was, to the right of where Mr. Borden laid, going
towards the eastern part of the house; beyond that, we did search.
Q. The second story?
A. I took in some rooms up there, and also took in the room where Mrs. Borden laid, searched there.
Q. What other room in the second story, beside the one Mrs. Borden lay in, did you search?
A. There were rooms before I got to there, where you first go up stairs.
Q. Up the back or the front stairs?
A. Up the side back stairs, I should call it.
Q. What search did you make there?
A. We searched all the rooms.
Q. Do you know which room is called Miss Lizzie’s room?
A. There was a room between where we searched and the room where Mrs. Borden was found, I believe
they call that Lizzie’s room.
Q. Did you search that?
A. I did not search Lizzie’s room.
Q. Did you afterwards?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Who was the searching party?
A. Officer Doherty, he was the searching party on the first, and I think on the second, Officer Hyde,
and some other officer.
Q. On the second search?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was the second search made?
A. Sometime before I came away.
Q. You searched twice?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see Miss Lizzie again?
A. I saw Miss Lizzie after that, and I inquired of her if she had seen anyone around on the premises. She
told me that she saw a man there in the morning.
Q. That morning?
A. That morning; and this man had on dark clothes; and that was all. She told me that he was a man
about Officer Hyde– about as large as Officer Hyde.
Q. Did she say where she saw him?
A. I do not think she did.
Q. What did she say; giver her language if you can.
A. She told me that she saw a man around there in the morning; that is the way I understood it.
Page 350
Q. Where was she then?
A. In her own room, the room adjoining the room where Mrs. Borden was.
Q. Did you go there again?
A. No. I believe I went from there, and went out and searched the barn and the yard.
Q. The whole barn?
A. That is, I searched downstairs and up.
Q. In the barn?
A. Yes.
Q. With the same object in view, for the man or the weapon?
A. The same object in view.
Q. Did you disturb the pile of boards, or did anybody?
A. I do not know as I disturbed anything.
Q. The pile of boards out in the back part of the yard?
A. I looked around that pile of bards, and also all around the fence and over into the other yard.
Q. Do you remember what the appearance of that pile of boards was at that time?
A. It was a pile of old boards, kind of a square pile, a little ways from the fence.
Q. Do you know where they are now?
A. No, I do not know where they are now.
Q. You have not looked at them lately?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know where they were three or four days after the murder was discovered?
A. No Sir.
Q. I thought you were on duty at the house part of the time?
A. I got through I think 20 minutes past two. I have not been there on duty.
Q. You did not disturb the pile of boards yourself?
A. No Sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Adams) Were there any trees in front of this house, on Second street?
A. I think there was trees out on the street.
Q. That is to say, they are on the line of the street in front of the house, on the side of the house?
A. I think so.
Q. There are fruit trees there?
A. I would not say for certain.
Q. Don’t they pretty well shade the front of the house?
A. Standing on Second street, and looking up, it looks as though there was trees in front of that house.
Q. When Miss Lizzie said something about seeing a man around there, did not she say she saw a man
under the tree, or something like that, by the front fence?
Page 351
A. I do not remember just what she did say.
Q. You would not say, she did not say in substance something like that?
A. No Sir, I could not.
Q. I do not care to ask you many question; but with reference to the search you made of the house, the
first search where you went up stairs into Bridget’s room, and came down, and went through the second
story; did you go into a large closet which is over the head of the front stairs on that floor?
A. Yes.
Q. In which clothes were hung, you went into that, and looked those over?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is a closet that is light, and you could see readily in it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was there a window in it?
A. I would not say whether there was a window in it or not.
Q. It was a pretty large and light closet, one could get inside and walk around in it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then you went down stairs, Bridget leading the way, and she went to this place where the hatchets
were got first?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the part of the cellar that you turn into first when you come down the stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was the floor of that, was it earth, or brick or boards?
A. In the wash room they were brick.
Q. I am speaking now of the first room you come into.
A. In the room where the hatchets were found, I would not say what the floor was.
Q. Is not a portion of the cellar still earth?
A. To the north of that is earth.
Q. To the north of what?
A. Of the cellar where the hatchets were.
Q. These hatchets you say she reached up, and took out of a box?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There were two of them; one larger than the other?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did either have, as far as you recollect, this claw head?
A. That I do not remember.
Q. How long were the handles, do you recollect?
A. I should judge that the handles were about 14 or 15 inches long.
Q. They were such hatchets as you would use with one hand?
A. Yes, such hatchets as you would use with one hand.
Q. What is your trade, or what was your trade before you became a public functionary?
Page 352
A. I was a seaman.
Q. You never were a carpenter, or worked at carpenter work?
A. No Sir.
Q. The axes you say were found in the room where the furnace was, or one sure?
A. That is further towards the street, coming towards Second street.
Q. That is west?
A. Yes.
Q. You say they were either up on something, or they were hung up?
A. They were up so I had to reach up and take them down.
Q. Were they lying down, or hanging?
A. Lying down lengthwise on a cross piece, I should say.
Q. They were covered with dust and ashes; you mean the fine dust of ashes?
A. Covered with ashes, they was.
Q. At this time Doherty had been in the wash room, which was the backside of the house, towards the
east?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You showed him these, and then laid them down on the floor in the wash room?
A. I think Mr. Doherty came along in the alley way, if I remember right. When I brought them in, I laid
them down in the wash room.
Q. They were left there, so far as you know?
A. So far as I know.
Q. On the floor in the wash room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is a brick floor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did you know this was a rust spot; could you tell by rubbing it?
A. By looking at it; I did not touch it.
Q. Were these pretty sharp, or look as though they were then, all of them?
A. The larger hatchet was quite sharp.
Q. Was that the one that had the rust on?
A. That is the one that had the rust on.
Q. The smaller hatchet was not as sharp?
A. I do not think it was.
Q. Did you ever look at them again?
A. No.
Q. Did you see any blood on the handles at that time?
A. No, I could not see any blood on them.
Q. I mean all of them, the axes or the hatchets.
A. I did not see any blood on any of them, that I could call blood.
Q. Did you see any hair on any of them?
A. No.
Q. Did you examine them?
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A. That is, I did not give them what you call a thorough examination I just looked at them.
Q. You were looking for evidence of blood?
A. Yes Sir I was.
Q. You looked on the handles and on the blades?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And looked at the edge of the blade?
A. Yes Sir, and saw this spot of what I call rust.
Q. You did not see any hair there on any of the blades, or on the handles?
A. No.
Q. Do you know how Dr. Dolan got possession of those axes and hatchets?
A. He came down in the cellar, and I gave him this large hatchet, and he looked at it.
Q. What did he do with it then?
A. I do not know what he did do with it.
Q. Did you give him anythingelse? Do you know how he got possession of the axes?
A. The other axes laid there, I do not know whether he examined them or not.
JOHN FLEET
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) John Fleet is your name?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You are the assistant city marshal?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was your attention first called to this affair?
A. I think about 20 minutes to 12 on August 4th.
Q. By somebody telephoning, or how?
A. A man came up in a team, sent by the marshal to my house.
Q. You were at home when the news came to the office?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Tell that again, what time it was.
A. About 20 minutes to 12.
Q. Where do you live?
A. 13 Park street.
Q. How far is that from this station?
A. Perhaps about three quarters of a mile, or less.
Q. Who was the man who came up with the team?
A. A man from Stone’s stable, I do not know his name. It was our team, that is, a police team.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I got my hat and coat and jumped in the wagon, and drove down to 92 Second street, Mr. Borden’s.
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Q. This place?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any idea what time you got there?
A. Yes; I think sometime between quarter to 12 and 12 o’clock; perhaps ten minutes to 12.
Q. Who did you find there when you got there?
A. I saw Officer Gillen at the front door, and I think Mr. Manning the reporter was there at the time. I
went around to the back door, and saw Mr. Charles Sawyer, and went into the house.
Q. Was there much of a crowd on the street then?
A. There was some crowd, yes sir.
Q. Who did you find in the house when you got in?
A. I saw Bridget Sullivan, Mr. Morse, Dr. Dolan, Dr. Bowen, and Miss Russell, and Lizzie Borden.
Q. Was Mr. Buck there then?
A. And Rev. Mr. Buck.
Q. What happened after you got in there?
A. I went into the sitting room, and saw Dr. Dolan standing over Mr. Borden. He was then laid on the
lounge dead, with his head all cut up. From there I went up stairs, and saw Mrs. Borden. She was
between the bed and the dressing case. Her head was all smashed, and she was turned face downwards.
From there, I went into Miss Lizzie’s room; that is, by asking Dr. Bowen, I found that she was in her
room.
Q. You had not seen Miss Lizzie then?
A. I had not at that time; no sir. I had a conversation with her.
Q. Where did you find her?
A. I found her sitting in the room with Rev. Mr. Buck, sitting on a sofa or lounge, I would not be sure
which it was.
Q. That was the first you had seen of her?
A. That is the first I saw of her, yes sir.
Q. Did you have any talk with her?
A. I did, yes sir.
Q. Tell what that was, please.
A. I asked her if she knew anything about who had killed her father and mother, (An expression which
the witness used here was objected to, and Mr. Knowlton agreed that it might be stricken out.) She said
it was not her mother, that her mother was dead. She said it was not her mother, it was her step mother.
I asked her if she had seen anybody around the premises that she — or seen anybody around the
premises this morning. She said that she had not; and then she said that she had heard a man at the front
door talking to her father about nine o’clock, or thereabouts, nine or a little before nine. I asked her what
they were talking about, and she said that she did not know, but she thought he was speaking about
some store. I asked her then if she thought that that man would be the one to do him an injury, or to kill
him. She said no, she did not know. I asked her if she knew who he was. She said she did not know, she
did not see
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him but heard them talking. She said that he spoke like an Englishman, and thought that he was there
after a store, something about a store. I asked her if she knew anyone that had ever threatened her father,
or suspected anyone that would do such a thing as kill him, and she said “no, I did not know that he had
an enemy in the world.” Then Miss Russell said “tell him all Lizzie, tell him about the man that you was
telling me about.” So then she said that about two weeks ago a man came to the door, and they had some
loud talk, and the man seemed to be mad or angry. I asked her what he was talking about. She said he was
talking about a store, and wanted Mr. Borden, she should judge, to let him the store; and he would not,
saying that he would not let it for that purpose. I asked her if she knew who he was. She said she did
not, but ??? he was a stranger, somebody out of Fall River. I asked her who else was in the house during
the day or last night. She said Bridget, the work girl, she did not say Bridget, she said Maggie, the work
girl, was there this forenoon. She said Bridget had been in the house in the forenoon. Well, I says “do you
suspect Bridget?” She says “no, I dont.” I says “where was Bridget during the time that your father—
that is, at any time this morning?” She said she had been outside washing windows, and that she came in,
and after her father came in, she went up stairs, as she thought, to fix her room, or make her bed; but she
did not think that Bridget had anything to do with it. She said after she went up stairs, that she went up
in the barn.
Q. You have got some shes there.
A. When Bridget went up stairs she said that she, meaning Lizzie, went up in the barn. I says “up in the
barn”? She says “yes”. “What do you mean by ‘up’? “Up stairs in the barn.” “How long did you remain
in the barn”? She says “about a half an hour. When I went out my father was laid on the lounge. When I
came back, I found him killed or cut up, in the same position as when I left him.” She also said that John
V. Morse, her Uncle, came there the day before, and he slept in the room where Mrs. Borden was found
killed. I asked her if she thought that John V. Morse could have had anything to do with this. She said
that it was impossible, because Mr. Morse went away before nine o’clock this morning, and did not
come back until after the murder. I then had a conversation with Morse.
Q. That I do not care for. Was she present?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was she present in the conversation with Bridget?
A. No Sir.
Q. At that time did you have any more talk with Lizzie than that?
A. I did, afterwards.
Q. Have you told all that took place at this interview?
A. I think I have, about all I can remember.
Q. Did you ask her, or did she tell you, what she was doing up in the barn?
A. She did not.
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Q. Nothing said about that?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who else was present during that conversation that you have told?
A. Mr. Buck and Miss Russell, that is all.
Q. No other officer?
A. Not at that time.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I then searched, just looked around her room, without making a general search, searched around in all
the rooms that I could get into, that was not locked.
Q. What rooms were those, if you remember?
A. The one I was already in, I merely glanced around in that room; then in the upper front bed room, or
spare room, as they call it, I searched around there; and tried another room which I found locked, a
clothes press. Then I went down stairs. I did not go in that room at that time.
Q. Did you go into Emma’s room?
A. Not at that time; I just merely looked, what I could see from Lizzie’s room, that is all. All I did was
to look in there from Lizzie’s room; I did not make any search.
Q. Was the door open between the two rooms?
A. Yes Sir, I looked in, but did not go in. I went down stairs, and looked in a closet at the foot of the
stairs, the foot of the front stairs, down stairs. I looked in the dining room, sitting room, kitchen, pantry,
and sink room down stairs. I went up stairs, and looked in the rooms that were opened, Bridget’s room—
Q. In the third story?
A. Yes, and another room on the second story, and is in the stair way.
Q. Did you go back to that room that you found locked, again?
A. I did afterwards, not at this visit. I then came back again and went down in the cellar.
Q. What did you find down in the cellar?
A. I found Mr. Mullaly, Mr. Doherty, and afterwards Dr. Dolan. I found Mr. Mullaly with a pair—
these same axes and hatchets on the floor in the wash room. We searched down in the cellar, we searched
the cellar even after that, to see if we could find anything that might have been used, other than what was
already on the floor; but failed to find anything.
Q. What was it that was already on the floor?
A. The two axes and the two hatchets.
Q. Did you make any examination yourself of them?
A. I did.
Q. What did you see about that?
A. I saw that the axes were dusty as though they might have been— the ashes likely thrown over them,
or dust from ashes got on to them; the same way with a small hatchet, it was dusty. The larger hatchet
was clean, with the exception of a rust spot that we looked at, and
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thought it might be blood, and made up our minds, or after looking at it, thought that it was rust. Looking
on the handle we saw a little spot which looked like blood, or somethingelse, I could not tell what it was.
Q. I hope soon to have the hatchet here. I should like to have you describe it, so I shall not have to call
you again. Describe that hatchet you say was clean.
A. It was a hatchet, the blade about as wide as that.
Q. Give it in inches.
A. Well, about four inches; and from head to blade, or sharp point, about six inches.
Q. (Mr. Jennings) The entire length of the blade?
A. I mean from the head to the cutting point.
Q. What kind of head did it have?
A. A claw hammar. (sic)
Q. The other one did not have a claw hammar?
A. I think not.
Q. It was a claw hammar hatchet?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. About how long was the handle?
A. I think about two feet.
Q. Then what did you do, Mr. Fleet?
A. We searched the cellar.
Q. Then what?
A. Dr. Dolan looked at these axes and hatchets; and he said we had better leave them there for the time
being.
Q. Where were they, by the way?
A. In the wash room on the cellar floor.
Q. Was that a brick or wooden floor at that place?
A. Brick.
Q. Resting on what?
A. On the brick, only when we held them up, looking at them.
Q. The handle was not laying up against any wall, the whole thing was on the floor?
A. They were, yes. I think at one time they were put up against the partition there.
Q. Then what did you do, Mr. Fleet?
A. I took one of them, this broad hatchet, and put it away.
Q. Where did you put it?
A. I put it into the cellar adjoining, where there was some shingles and other boxes and some barrels. I
put it there, thinking I might want it again.
(Mr. Adams) Never mind what you thought.
A. I put it there, so I could find it again.
Q. You may have gone over this, but I want to make sure. The hatchets and axes when you first saw
them, were where?
A. They were on the floor when I saw them.
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Q. Was there anybody near them then?
A. Yes, there was Mr. Mullaly, Mr. Doherty and Bridget. Bridget was there, and went up stairs after I
came down.
Q. Had Dr. Dolan got there then?
A. Dr. Dolan got there soon after I got there.
Q. Then what?
A. I went outside. O, while in there, I tried the cellar door. Somebody said they were – – – I tried the
cellar door, and I found it was fastened.
Q. You tried it in consequence of what somebody said?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That door goes from the cellar to the back yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is there any other door to the cellar beside that?
A. None whatever that leads outside.
Q. Then what?
A. Then I went up stairs, and came outside, and went in the barn.
Q. Tell what you did there.
A. I looked around the barn, and satisfied myself that there was nobody, or anything, there that could
have done this deed.
Q. Was the barn door open?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The barn door is around on the side?
A. Yes Sir, on the south side.
Q. Then what?
A. Then I came out. Of course in the mean time I had given some orders to the men, in putting them
around; that has nothing to do with this thing, I suppose.
Q. Where did you go then?
A. Afterwards I went in the house again.
Q. At this same visit?
A. Yes, and consulted with two of my officers, and a state officer.
Q. Mr. Seaver, had he got there then?
A. No Sir, it was Mr. Dexter.
Q. What then?
A. I made another search. I went up stairs and questioned Lizzie again in the presence of two of the
officers.
Q. Who were they?
A. Officer Minnehan and Officer Wilson.
Q. What then?
A. I went to the door, and found that Dr. Bowen was in there holding the door.
Q. What?
A. Dr. Bowen was in there, and he held the door. I told him what I wanted to do, I wanted to get in
there, and search the room and search the house pretty thoroughly. He said he would see Miss Lizzie.
He said he had been bothered considerable, and he would see Miss Lizzie.
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“Just wait a moment”. I waited.
Q. He was in the room?
A. Yes; so he turned and said something to her. Of course I do not know what it was. He came back and
says “is it absolutely necessary that you should search this room, Lizzie wants to know?” I says “yes, I
have got to do my duty as an officer, and I cannot leave the premises until I have searched the whole of
this house.” So he said something to her, and then opened the door, and I went in. I spoke to her and told
her that I had got to search the house. She says “how long will it take you?” I says “it wont take me long.
I have got to search it though.” “I do hope you will get through soon”, she says, “it will make me sick.” I
said in the meantime “you say Miss Borden, that you went out in the barn this morning, and remained
out a half an hour”. She says “no sir I do not.” “What do you say then”? “I say that I went out in the
barn, and was out there from twenty minutes to a half an hour.” “You told me this morning, or you told
me when I saw you before that you was in there for half an hour.” Well, she says “I do not say so now, I
was there I say from twenty minutes to half an hour”. I says “what do you make it now, twenty
minutes?” She says “no, from twenty minutes to half an hour,” —(Witness added two words which were
objected to, and Mr. Knowlton agreed might be stricken out.) We searched the premises, that is, her
room, looked in the drawers —
Q. You had no more talk with her just then?
A. Not that I can just remember. We searched the bureau drawers, and went into what was called Miss
Emma’s room, and searched her bed, and Lizzie’s bed, and all the places that was available. Then we went
behind the bed, Lizzie’s bed, to another door, and I got my hand on to that door, and asked her where the
key was to this door. She says “that is father’s room.” She says “you cannot get in at that door. It is
always locked.” I says “I should like to get in there some way or another. She says “the only way to get
in is by going around the back stairs and going in that way. I found the door was locked, so I took her
word for it, and went out. O, then I got out in the hall way, I asked her who had the key to this door, and
what it was used for.
Q. What door was that?
A. A clothes press on the second floor. She said that she had a key that would open it. I says “I wish
you would produce it, I want to look in there.” Well, she says “there is nothing in there, but clothing.”
Well, I says “I want to see, I want to look in there.” She produced a key and unlocked the door. I went in
there and looked around.
Q. Describe that room.
A. It was a room five by eight; that is as near as I can see it now, about five by eight.
Q. Is it a room directly over the front door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A window in it?
A. Yes Sir.
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Q. Light?
A. There is light when the shutters are open.
Q. How did you find it?
A. I found that the shutters were closed, that is, partly closed, the upper one was a little bit open, I
found in the window, where the two parts joined, I found that was packed with some sort of cloth or
paper so no dust could come in there, and the same on the bottom, so that the window had never been
opened for sometime.
Q. You searched in there?
A. I searched in there, and found nothing that we thought we had ought to take. We went from there
down stairs, and looked in the parlor, and did not find anything there, and went —
Q. You said “we”, who was that with you?
A. As I said before Officer Minnehan and Wilson. We searched again the sitting room and closet in
there, and found nothing. The same way in the sitting room, and searched the kitchen and the closets, a
more thorough search. Then we got the key from Bridget and searched Mrs. Borden’s room.
Q. You went up the back stairs, do you mean?
A. We went up the back stairs to do that.
Q. Did you try the door between Lizzie’s room and Mrs. Borden’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which side did you try it from?
A. From Lizzie’s side.
Q. How was it fastened?
A. By a bolt I think from the other side, and I do not know but a hook too.
Q. Then what?
A. We searched that room, and the room adjoining, there was a safe in that, but we did not find
anything; nothing but the bed, that is all; we found no kind of an instrument that the persons could have
been killed by. Then we went up stairs and searched the four attics, I think it was four. Bridget had the
keys. We went into each one as she unlocked them, and turned over things, and put them back in their
proper places, and found nothing there that we wanted. We searched Bridget’s bed, and searched also a
bed where John Morse had slept since, and I think had before.
Q. That is in the attic?
A. That was in the attic. That is all I can state just now.
Q. Then you went away?
A. I made a report to the Marshal.
Q. What time did you get back to the office?
A. I can hardly tell, I think 2 o’clock or so, after 2.
Q. Have you told all you can remember that Miss Lizzie told you?
A. All I think of.
Q. Do you remember of her saying anything about the possibility of getting into her room?
A. O yes, when I went in there she said —–
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Q. Which time was that?
A. The second time, when the two officers were with me.
Q. Those two, Minnehan and Wilson?
A. Yes sir. That time when I went in, she said “it is no use in searching this room,” she says, “Nobody
can get in here, or put anything in.” She says “I always lock my door when I leave it. There is no
possibly way for anybody to get anything in there.”
Q. Did she say anything to you about when she last saw Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes. I asked her when she saw Mrs. Borden last. She said the last time that she saw her was about
nine o’clock that morning, when she was going down stairs. “Where did you see her then?” “I saw her in
the room where she was found murdered.”
Q. Did she say what she was doing in there?
A. She was fixing the bed. She also said in the previous conversation, the first conversation, that she
thought that Mrs. Borden had received a note, or letter, from someone that morning, and “We thought
she had gone out of the house.” That was the first talk with her.
Q. In this talk where she told you the last time she saw her was when she was going down stairs in the
morning, which talk was that?
A. That was the first talk, the first time.
Q. What was Miss Lizzie’s appearance when you saw her in her room?
A. Cool and collected.
(Objected to.)
Q. Was she in tears?
A. No sir.
Q. At any of the time was she in tears?
A. Not any time.
Q. Is there any other fact, Mr. Fleet, that I have not asked you with relation to this matter? My minutes
end here.
A. Not that I can think of.
CROSS EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Adams.) This talk with her was sometime between about noon and two o’clock in the
afternoon, was it not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. The first talk was about noon was it not?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you know that Officer Doherty had talked with her before you had?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you know that Officer Mullaly had before you had?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you know that other people had been talking to her before you had?
A. I did not, no sir.
Q. Or that they were measuring the words of this girl, immediately after finding her father and
stepmother dead; you did not know that did you?
A. I did not know who had talked with her at all.
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Q. When you were in the cellar at the time that you have stated, did you find Mr. Doherty the officer
there?
A. I did.
Q. Did you know at that time he had searched this clothes press which you say was locked, and was
over the stairs?
A. No sir I did not.
Q. You say that your look in that room was the first look of anybody after this tragedy?
A. I do not.
Q. You do not know anything about it, do you?
A. No sir I did not; but I thought it was.
Q. When you got there, and had this first talk with her, do I understand that you went to the barn, or
made some other search, before you went to the barn?
A. Yes sir —- no I did not go to the barn; I made a search around the house, as already stated.
Q. I was not quite sure in my recollection about that. When you went to the barn, who went with you?
A. Officer Minnihan and Officer Wilson.
Q. Do you know where Officers Doherty and Mullarly were then?
A. Around in the house.
Q. This barn was then open when you got there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you go up stairs?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you look at the hay?
A. I did.
Q. Did you go to the different windows?
A. I did not pay much attention to the windows.
Q. Are there windows in the hay loft?
A. One on each end I think.
Q. One to the west and one to the east?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you see a work bench up there in the second floor of the barn?
A. I did not notice any. I think there was a bench.
Q. Was there not some sort of a bench there, what is commonly called a work bench, which might be
used for a variety of work, carpenter work, and any work of that sort?
A. I think there was something of that kind there.
Q. Did you go to these windows?
A. No sir.
Q. Was there anything to prevent your going?
A. There was on one end.
Q. Which end?
A. On the west end.
Q. What was there to prevent it?
A. I think there was a partition there, I am not sure.
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Q. So you cannot get to that west window?
A. No,; I could have got there well enough.
Q. What kind of a partition?
A. A wooden one.
Q. How high up?
A. I would not be sure, probably six or seven feet.
Q. Running from north to south across?
A. No, it does not go right across, only on one end of it, on the south west end of the barn.
Q. There is a partition that runs across?
A. Corner ways, yes sir, one corner.
Q. What is it for?
A. I do not know.
Q. That prevents your going to that west window, does it?
A. No I did not say that it did.
Q. I understood you to say you did not go there because there was something that prevented you, that
there was a partition?
A. I said there was a partition there. I did not go to the west window.
Q. Did you not say that was the obstacle that prevented you from going to the west window?
A. It was there; but I do not know as it could have stopped me from going, if I wanted to go.
Q. My examination now is directly to this point, why you did not go to the west window. I understand
you to say there was an obstacle in the nature of the partition six or seven feet high?
A. I am not sure about that.
Q. How will you leave it, was there anything to prevent your going to this west window, when you
went up there?
A. I could not really say, but my impression was there was a partition there, and it did not go to the
window. I did not go to the window, did not go to either window.
Q. You do not mean to leave it there was anything there that would prevent you from going to either
window, if you had happened to want to go there?
A. Not if I had wanted to.
Q. Do you remember how the hay was piled when you got up into the barn?
A. Yes sir, it was piled on the north west part; in fact all on the north side of the barn was hay.
Q. That left the passage way, or the place to walk, on the side of the barn, that the door was, namely on
the south side?
A. That left a passage way there.
Q. You searched down stairs, I understood you went all around there in the barn?
A. Yes.
Q. Who went up stairs with you, Officers Minnehan and Wilson?
A. The same two officers were with me.
Page 364
Q. Did you see Officer Medley there?
A. Not at that time, I saw him in the yard, I think after twelve o’clock.
Q. That was shortly after you had got there, and after you went in the barn?
A. I went in the barn after I saw him.
Q. Where was he?
A. In the yard when I went there at this time.
Q. Was he out in the yard when you went to the barn?
A. I think not.
Q. Where were you when you first saw him, were you in the house, or coming to the house?
A. I was outside.
Q. Had you been in?
A. I had not.
Q. That was then when you were first going there?
A. When I first went there.
Q. Where was he with reference to the street fence?
A. Mr. Medley was between the back entrance to the house and the front fence.
Q. On the north side where the walk is?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know whether Medley had been up in the barn then or not?
A. I do not think he had.
Q. Now this young woman, who had been asked questions by Officer Doherty, and Officer Mullaly,
and by you, was subsequently asked questions in her chamber when Dr. Bowen was there, was not she,
by you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And this talk you have sketched took place up there?
A. Yes sir.
Q. About the time she was out in the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When you say in the first conversation that she did not accuse Bridget, and she did not accuse Mr.
Morse, and she did not accuse such and such people, and that someone two weeks ago had had a
controversy at the door, between whom did she say that occurred?
A. Between her father and this man at the door.
Q. Do you think she said there was any talk between her father and this man you have spoken of on the
morning of the day of the tragedy?
A. I do not. This was another man. I think I so stated.
Q. At all events, when you went up stairs this second time, and asked her how long she had been in the
barn, you thought she had told you something else a few minutes before, Dr. Bowen was there in charge
of her, was not he, at the same time, as a physician?
A. He was there most of the time, yes sir.
Q. I am speaking now of the time when you went upstairs to her room, the last talk you had with her,
the second talk, when he came to the door, and went back and spoke to her, you said he was there as her
physician?
Page 365
A. As a friend and physician.
Q. As both?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Then you went in, and she asked you if it was necessary, and said she hoped it would not take long?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And she gave you the key?
A. She did not, she went and unlocked the door herself.
Q. Having the key herself?
A. Yes sir.
Q. This was the clothes press, or closet we were asking about, which was over the front entry, which
you make about eight feet by five, and which was light, and easy to search?
A. It was when we opened the blind.
Q. You did that?
A. Yes sir.
Q. It was full of women’s clothing?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Hung in order?
A. Perfect order I should say.
Q. Hung on wooden frames, dresses hung around there, two or three rows of them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. How many dresses were there?
A. A dozen to eighteen dresses I should think.
Q. You examined that place pretty thoroughly?
A. Not so thoroughly as it was examined afterwards.
Q. Was it examined afterwards?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When?
A. On the Saturday following.
Q. Did you look over the clothing at this particular time?
A. I did not, not in a particular way.
Q. What did you look at?
A. I did, I looked at the clothing, some of it.
Q. What did you leave unlooked at, any portion of it?
A. No sir; I just merely looked at the clothing. I lifted up the cloth over them, and took each dress and
looked at it.
Q. Was there a cloth over them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. What kind of cloth?
A. A white cloth.
Q. Hung all over this clothing in that closet?
A. Yes sir.
Q. A cheese cloth, or sheet, to keep the dust off?
A. Like a sheet.
Q. How was the cloth fixed up, how was it fastened up, or placed
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over them after they were hung there?
A. Run from one end of the room to the door.
Q. Tacked up?
A. I do not know, so you could lift it up.
Q. You lifted it up without its coming down?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you looking to see if you could find any bloody garments?
A. Not very closely, I was if —-
Q. Did you have that in mind?
A. Yes sir.
(Mr. Knowlton.) Let him answer.
A. I was if I could find any clothing that had blood on that showed very plainly, of course; but I was
not looking in a very close way.
Q. You were looking at these various garments to see if they had indications of having blood on them?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You went through this closet, looking at these various garments lifting the sheet?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Lifting up those on the outside, so you could see those in the rear?
A. Yes sir.
Q. They were hanging from hooks that stood inside the shelf so they hung a little distance from each
other?
A. There was two or three dresses, one over the other you know.
Q. On the same hook?
A. Apparently; one dress would rest against the other.
Q. Were they on the same hook?
A. I do not know.
Q. Were there not two rows of hooks there, one upon the wall, and the other on the bottom of the shelf
just above the row of hooks that ran around the room?
A. I could not say as to that. Some of the dresses were one dress hanging above the other.
Q. Not on the same hook?
A. I did not say so; I cannot say as to the hooks.
Q. You went through that closet in the manner you have described?
A. Yes sir.
Q. That was after you came out of the cellar?
A. Yes sir.
Q. After you had seen these axes?
A. Yes sir.
Q. And the hatchets?
A. Yes sir.
Q. When you left there, this larger hatchet, you put upon a pile of shingles that were under the stairs, or
in a closet there?
A. I did not say so. I put it away.
Q. Where?
A. Into a room adjoining the wash cellar.
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Q. Was not there a bin in that room?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you put it in the bin?
A. No sir, I put it into a place that led from the wash cellar into the cellar where they kept barrels and
some stuff.
Q. What was that on, how was it placed?
A. There was some boxes there, and some frames, and pieces of wood; I put it in between the boxes, so
I could go and put my hand on it.
Q. When did you go and get that afterwards?
A. I did not get it.
Q. Do you know who did get it?
A. Yes sir, Officer Edson.
Q. Under your direction?
A. No sir.
Q. When he got it, you did not know that he was to get it?
A. No sir.
Q. When did he get it?
A. The following morning.
Q. Then this was not taken on the day of the tragedy, but the next day after?
A. It was not brought here until the day afterwards.
Q. Was it taken that morning away from that house?
A. No sir.
Q. Or was it carried up stairs that day of the tragedy?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Do you know whether Officer Edson went from headquarters up there and got it and brought it here?
A. He went by the order of the Marshal, down very early in the morning and got it.
Q. Did he bring the other axes with him?
A. I do not know, I was not there.
Q. Did you see the other axes in the Marshal’s room?
A. I did.
Q. What were they in?
A. They were exposed, they were on the side of the partition.
Q. Do you know what they had been brought in?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you know anything about a sack or a bag?
A. Only as I have heard it here.
Q. You did not see the officer take any such thing to get them in?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you see him then he went?
A. I did not.
Q. At any event, he went on Friday morning?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Now this particular hatchet, which you put in between the boxes in that room which led out of the
wash room where the old barrels are, or whatever they are,; they were barrels that contained some liquid
sometime or other?
Page 368
A. Yes sir.
Q. When you put it there, was it damp, or did it look as though it had been freshly washed?
A. It did to me.
Q. How did it look?
A. It looked as though it had been wiped.
Q. With a damp cloth?
A. Yes, or might have been washed and wiped.
Q. Had it been scraped?
A. No sir, it did not show any scraping.
Q. Did you notice the handle?
A. I did.
Q. Did you see any hairs on it?
A. I did not.
Q. Or on the blade?
A. No sir.
Q. Or above the blade on the handle of the hatchet?
A. On no part of it.
Q. You examined all those axes and the hatchet to see whether they showed any indications of blood,
did not you?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You had that in mind?
A. Yes.
Q. You knew at that time, the injuries to these people were such, there was liable to be hair on the axes,
or the weapon whatever it was, that done it?
A. I did not think of everything at the time.
Q. Did you think about that?
A. I thought there was liable to be blood of course.
Q. Did you think of hair?
A. I should if I had seen it of course.
Q. You examined the axes for the purposes of detecting blood, and seeing what you did; and did not see
any hair?
A. No sir.
Q. I understand you to say you made a search there, not the day following the tragedy, but the next day,
Saturday, that was the day of the funeral?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Was it after the funeral?
A. Yes after the funeral.
Q. It was after the funeral procession had left the house?
A. After the services at the house.
Q. Did you search for it while the funeral was going on?
A. No sir.
Q. Or just before the funeral?
A. No sir.
Q. But after the procession had left the house, then you began to search, did you not?
A. Yes sir.
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Q. Who was present at that time?
A. Marshal Hilliard, Mr. Seaver, Dr. Dolan, Capt. Desmond, Mr. Jennings and myself.
Q. This then was in the afternoon as I understand it?
A. Yes sir.
Q. You went through everything then as thoroughly as you knew how?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Mr. Jennings was there?
A. Yes he was.
Q. You were given every facility to go through the house?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Did you search this closet again at the head of the stairs?
A. We did.
Q. Who did?
A. I was in there, looked in there, and the Marshal I think was the one that searched it thoroughly.
Q. How thoroughly was it searched, what was done if you saw?
A. We looked at all the clothing I suppose.
Q. Was Mr. Seaver there?
A. Yes.
Q. He was engaged in that part of the search too, was not he?
A. Yes, I did not search that time, I merely went to the room, and the others were in it.
Q. Who unlocked it for you, if it was locked at that time?
A. I think the keys were given to the Marshal.
Q. By whom?
A. By somebody in the house, I could not say who.
Q. That is, the keys to everything in the house?
A. Yes.
Q. You searched the cellar again, and the barn?
A. I did not.
Q. It was searched, was not it?
A. Not at that time.
Q. Did you search the vault, and everything else?
A. I searched it on the first day.
Q. You went through such things as band boxes and barrels and all those things on this Saturday search,
and bundles, undid bundles?
A. We went through everything.
Q. Things done up in bundles, you went through those, and untied them?
A. Yes sir, furs and capes &c.
THIS ENDS VOLUME IV
PRELIMINARY HEARING
STENOGRAPHER’S MINUTES
VOLUME V
COMMONWEALTH Mr. Knowlton
vs.
LIZZIE A. BORDEN Mr. Adams, Mr. Jennings
WITNESSES Direct Cross Re-Direct Re-Cross
Dr. Edward S. Wood 370 374 384 385
James Winwood 386 386
John Dennie 389 390
Philip Harrington 391 396
Dr. Seabury Bowen 400 407 412 413
Rufus B. Hilliard 415 427
Dr. William T. Learned 429 429
George F. Seaver 430 435 436
John Donnelley 437 437
Dr. Frank W. Draper 443 453
Dr. Benjamin J. Handy 454 456 458
Delia S. Manley 459 460
Marienne Chagnon 461 464
Martha Chagnon 464 466
Alfred Clarkson 468 469
Mary E. Brigham 471
Charles S. Sawyer 473 476
Jerome C. Borden 476 477
Phebe Bowen 478
Annie M. White, Stenographer
New Bedford, Mass.
Page 370
EDWARD S. WOOD
Q. (By Mr. Knowlton) What is your full name?
A. Edward S. Wood.
Q. What is your business?
A. I am a physician and chemist.
(Mr. Adams) You need not spend any time in qualifying him, so far as we are concerned.
Q. You are a Professor, I believe, in Harvard University, in chemistry?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you receive a package containing two stomachs at any time?
A. On the fifth of August I received a box by express, and opened it, and found that it contained four
jars. One jar was labeled “milk of August 3rd, ” and another jar labelled “milk of August 4th”, the third
jar labelled “stomach of Andrew J. Borden”, and the fourth jar labelled “stomach of Mrs. Andrew J.
Borden”. All of these jars were properly tied and sealed, with the seals unbroken.
Q. Have you preserved the seals?
A. I have.
Q. You have not them here?
A. No Sir.
Q. But they are in your custody?
A. They are in my possession.
Q. What did you do with those stomachs, Professor?
A. The stomachs were both unopened. I opened them; carefully examined the stomachs, and carefully
examined the contents which they contained. I found that both stomachs were perfectly natural in
appearance. They were in the condition of apparent perfect health. There was no evidence of
inflamation, no evidence of the action of any irritant, or anything of that kind. The contents of the
stomach of’ Mrs. Andrew J. Borden were first examined. Her stomach contained about eleven ounces of
semi-solid food, being a mixture of the solid food and water. I should say at least 4/5 of it, and perhaps
9/10 of the contents of Mrs. Borden’s stomach was solid food, the rest being water; it was partially
digested food. It contained bread, or rather wheat starch, which would be the case in case bread had been
eaten, or any similar food which was made with flour or meal. It contained a good deal of meat, both the
muscular fiber and the fat. That is, the contents consisted chiefly of bread, or some similar food, it might
have been some kind of cake or muffin, and meat and oil. It also contained a good many vegetable pulp
cells, which might be potato, or might be apple, so far as I could determine. I found some vegetable tissue
which might have been onion or apple skin, or some bit of vegetable in the food. The digestion, to me,
seemed to be somewhere advanced in the neighborhood of from two to three hours.
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To the best of my opinion it would be in the neighborhood of 2 and 1/2 hours, more of less. (Refers to
notes.) The stomach was immediately tested for prussic acid, with a negative result; no prussic acid was
detected there. The preliminary test was performed at once; and later a more complete analysis for
prussic acid was made after the contents were thoroughly sealed in glass. If there had been any, none
would have escaped. The stomach of Mr. Andrew J. Borden contained only about six ounces, and that
was chiefly water, about 9/10 water, and 1/10 solid material. I should have stated in connection with
Mrs. Borden’s stomach in the first place, there were solid bits of meat, as well as of the bread or muffin,
or whatever was eaten, the starchy food. In Mr. Borden’s stomach there was found only a very small
quantity of starch, and a very small quantity of meat. The principal portion of the solid food in his
stomach was the vegetable pulp cells, which might be potato or apple or pear, or something of that kind
which he ate. The digestion in his case, there being so little food in his stomach, being nearly all water, I
should say had advanced from 3 and 1/2 to 4 hours. I could not say accurately within an hour; but it was
very much further advanced than in the case of Mrs. Borden.
Q. About what difference was there in the advancement of the two stomachs?
A. In Mrs. Borden I should say from two to three hours; in his, from 3 and 1/2 to 4 and 1/2; somewhere
in the neighborhood of two hours difference, an hour and a half, or two hours difference between the two
I should think. There were a few shreds of vegetable tissue in his stomach, as well, which might have
been apple skin.
Q. Could they have been pear skin?
A. I should think so.
Q. When you say “apple”, you mean some fruit of that kind. Did you find any trace of any poison in
either stomach?
A. I tested Mr. Borden’s stomach also for prussic acid, with a negative result. There was no evidence of
any irritant poison having been in the stomach at all, no irritation. There is no other ordinary poison
which would prove fatal immediately; that was the only one I considered it necessary to test for, under
the circumstances.
Q. Have you yet analyzed the milk?
A. I have not.
Q. So you have no report to make about the milk of either day?
A. I have not opened the jars; I have not had time to.
Q. Is that all you have to say about the stomachs, Professor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You came to Fall River yourself after them?
A. I was in Fall River on the 9th of August.
Q. And received some things from here?
Page 372
A. On the 10th of August I received from Dr. Dolan a trunk.
Q. Received it personally?
A. Received it personally.
Q. What did you find in the trunk?
A. The trunk contained a hatchet, two axes, a blue dress skirt, a blue dress waist, a white skirt, a
starched skirt, a lounge cover, and a large envelope which contained three small envelopes, these small
envelopes being marked, one of them, “hair taken from A. J. Borden”, the second one, “hair taken from
Mrs. A. J. Borden”, and the third one “hair taken from the hatchet,” or “from hatchet”. On the 16th of
August I received from City Marshal Hilliard, personally, in Boston, a paper box containing a pair of
shoes or ties, and a pair of black stockings.
Q. Women’s stockings?
A. Yes Sir. Of these substances, I examined the hatchet — take them in order, as I have given them. The
hatchet contained quite a number of suspicious looking spots which looked like blood spots on the head
of the hatchet, and also on the handle. These were examined very carefully and thoroughly, but there was
no blood spot upon the hatchet, whatever, no trace of blood. The same was true of both axes. Every
spot which seemed possible to be a blood stain, and some which did not look to me to be blood stains, I
tested very carefully; and there was no blood whatever on either ax. The blue dress skirt contained, near
the pocket, a long smooch, one or two inches long, which looked as if it might be a blood smooch; but on
testing that very carefully, it was found not to be a blood smooch. Another stain lower down on the skirt
had a similar appearance; and that also was not blood. There was no suspicious spot whatever on the
blue dress waist. The white skirt had one very small spot, which looked like blood, and which was
plainer, more extensive, a little more extensive on the outside of the skirt than on the inside. That stain
was situated almost exactly in front, and six inches from the bottom. It was about 1/16 of an inch in
diameter. That was a spot of blood. There was no other spot on the skirt whatever which could by any
possibility have been mistaken for blood. The carpet — one carpet was a light Brussels carpet, light
colored, with red figure, which had two dried pools of blood, that is, two patches made by the drying of
a pool of blood, which, of course, was blood stain. That was the carpet which I recognized as being the
sitting room carpet. The other carpet was thoroughly saturated with blood, both underneath and on the
surface; it was stiff with blood. I recognized it as the carpet from the spare room, and said to have been
found under the body of Mrs. Borden. The lounge cover had a dirty stain near one corner, which looked
a good deal like blood; but which I proved not to be. There was no blood on the lounge cover. The
envelope marked “hair from A. J. Borden” was
Page 373
simply a lock of white hair, a part of it stained with blood. The envelope marked “hair of Mrs. A. J.
Borden” contained several locks of dark grayish hair, some of it clotted with blood. The hair taken from
hatchet was about one inch long, and under the microscope was seen to have a red brown color, and
contained both the root and the point. In other words, it was hair like that from a cow, or an animal, and
was not a human hair.
Q. About how long was it?
A. One inch long. The pair of shoes or ties, they were more like ties, the bottom of the right one looked
as though it might contain a blood stain. But careful testing of it, proved it to be not a blood stain; it was
from the leather, or the tanning of the leather in some way. The left shoe had nothing suspicious on it.
Neither had either of the stockings. In other words, there was no blood on either shoes or stockings.
Q. Did you testimony include the two axes? If it did not, tell us about them. You found nothing on the
two axes?
A. Nothing on the two axes.
Q. There was something on the hatchet that had been supposed to be blood, or that was thought to be?
A. Yes Sir. Near the sharp edge of the hatchet on both sides, there was an accumulation of material
which looked as though it might be blood, and which under the microscope was seen to be chiefly wood
and cotton fiber. There was quite a number of cotton fibres in this patch. There was a little stain that
looked as though it might have been from a spatter of blood. It was a long narrow stain on the beveled
edge of the hatchet, on the left hand side, about one inch from the upper corner on the blade, on the head
of the hatchet, at the sharp edge, and it was evidently made by moisture. It was a spatter of some kind,
perhaps a spatter of water, where rust had accumulated there. It was iron rust, and not blood; it looked
like blood though. There was another spot on the side of the head of the hatchet very similar to a blood
stain. In fact iron rust does resemble blood very much, and it is almost impossible, sometimes, for me to
distinguish between the two.
Q. Without a scientific examination?
A. Without testing, yes sir. There were also several stains on the handle, which I examined, with
negative result.
Q. What were they; what did they turn out to be?
A. On the handle of the hatchet, and on the handle of the axes, there were some reddish stains, that
looked very much like blood, which was either reddish tinted varnish— There was a pigment on them,
which after performing the blood test, appeared to be some mineral pigment that resembled blood.
Q. You only examined one hatchet?
A. That is all.
Q. Have you that hatchet here?
Page 374
A. I have.
Q. Please produce it.
A. I did not bring it here for this purpose; I brought it for another purpose. (Produces it.)
Q. That is the one you have been talking about?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The other hatchet you have not seen?
A. No Sir.
Q. It has not been put in your hand?
A. No Sir.
Q. You say you found but one hair in the envelope?
A. One. There were two papers. One of them was marked as containing a hair, but I could not find any.
It had evidently been lost off in some way. I have the original paper here. I noticed it stuck to the
envelope some when I took it off. I was very careful about it, and examined it with the lens. This paper
is marked “hair placed here 1.57 P.M. 8-7-9,” but I could not find any hair on it.
Q. You found a mucilage spot, but no hair?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you the axes with you or the clothing?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not bring them?
A. No Sir. It was never my habit to carry them to any preliminary hearing. These I brought for another
purpose; I did not bring them to show.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (By Mr. Adams) I desire to call your attention, Professor, to the white skirt which was handed to
you. I understood you to say that was a starched white skirt?
A. It was what I supposed was a white, ordinary, starched skirt.
Q. It had the stiffness, or appearance of starch, one would commonly notice in a white skirt?
A. It was a common white skirt, yes sir.
Q. Did the test you applied to this indicate that it was starched?
A. That was mere guess work on my part; there was no test applied to it.
Q. On which side of the skirt was this spot?
A. Right in front. It was a little larger in diameter on the outside than on the inside, showing, in all
probability, the spot got on it from the outside.
Q. Did the skirt appear to have been turned?
A. No Sir.
Q. The skirt was worn only upon one side?
A. It had that appearance.
Q. Was it immediately opposite the placket hole?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. If that were worn in the rear, that would be the front?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 375
Q. If it were worn a little on one side, that would vary the place of the spot?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The size of this spot would be about that of an ordinary pin head?
A. Yes Sir, about 1/16 of an inch, I mentioned.
Q. When you get down to 1/16 of an inch, I do not get a good comprehension of the size of it. Is there
some object here, the ordinary head of a pin would be a little larger than this spot?
A. It would be the head of a pin about an inch and a half long.
Q. This you say was human blood?
A. I did not say that; no sir.
Q. What was it?
A. It was blood.
Q. What kind of blood?
A. I do not know. I have not examined to see whether it was human or not. I have not had time for that.
Q. If human blood was drawn out by the tantalizing process of the mosquito, or the flea, and then got
on a skirt, would that alter its appearance so that test would show that it was human blood?
A. Only in this way; if a mosquito or flea was crushed, it would have a different shape, it would not be
the clear round shape that this was.
Q. Could you tell anything from the shape of this spot, in what direction it came, or struck the skirt?
A. No Sir, there was nothing about it which would indicate that.
Q. It was dry?
A. It was when I got it.
Q. It was dried then when you got it; so that the test you would have to apply to it now to determine
whether it was human blood, or some other variety of blood, would be the test that must be applied to
dried blood?
A. Certainly.
Q. Are you prepared to say, Professor, in the test for dried blood, one can assert with positiveness that
a given specimen is, or is not, human blood?
A. You can state whether it is consistent with its being human blood, or not. You cannot state
positively that it is.
Q. Science has not proceeded far enough yet so you can say whether it is, or not, human blood?
A. No; but you can say it is not certain animals blood.
Q. When you get into the class of mammals that suckle their young, after blood has been dried, the test
is not so satisfactory?
A. You can tell between those, certain ones.
Q. Between a man and a dog it is pretty close?
A. That is very close.
Page 376
Q. Between a man and a horse it is a little further off?
A. Yes Sir. The principal ones, however, are the opossum and seal, and one kind of guinea pig; those are
the nearest human, nearer than the dog.
Q. The dog is sufficiently near so to make it somewhat doubtful?
A. It is a little more difinite in the case of a dog nowadays than it used to be.
Q. A little more than it used to be?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) The difference is a little more obvious you mean?
A. We detect it more easily now than we used to.
Q. Now coming to the stomachs which were sent to you, and the process of digestion; I suppose this
depends somewhat upon the condition of health of the person?
A. I should have mentioned when I gave my opinion in regard to the time, I did not happen to think of
it, provided the digestion went on normally. I should have put in that proviso.
Q. You meant to answer my question by saying that determining the length of time the person is dead
by the condition of the stomach, depends somewhat upon the process of digestion, whether it went on
normally?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Speaking generally, does digestion go on faster or slower in a stout person than a lean person?
A. I did not know that there was any difference. I have heard it stated so since I came to Fall River. I do
not know whether there was anything in it, or not. I am not aware of any difference.
Q. It seems in a stout person the result is a little more successful but you are not prepared to say there
is any difference?
A. I never heard of any.
Q. Does the amount of the gastric juice affect speedy or slow digestion? Does it affect the digestion?
A. Why, certainly the gastric juice helps digestion.
Q. If there is a surplus of it, what is the effect?
A. I think that would be disposed of, most of it. The excess would be absorbed by the movement of the
stomach, would be passed onward into the intestines.
Q. Would it retard digestion?
A. It might make sour stomach, which would secrete more.
Q. You say these stomachs showed no appearance of inflamation or irritation?
A. No Sir, they appeared healthy.
Q. Suppose one had been suffering a day or two, or three or four days, from what are common this time
of the year, an attack of cholera morbus, or the complaint where one vomits, is unable to retain food,
Page 377
and they die, and the stomach was then examined, what would the appearance of the stomach be under
those circumstances?
A. It would not have any special appearance.
Q. There would not be any appearance of any special irritation?
A. No Sir.
Q. If one was in that condition, would the fact they were suffering from that complaint tend to retard
digestion of such food as they put into their stomach?
A. I think more likely it would tend to diminish the appetite.
Q. What effect would it have on any food they put into their stomach, from such food as was put into
the stomach? Would not the digestion be retarded somewhat?
A. It might, or might not.
Q. In other words, there is nothing certain about it? Is there anything certain about it?
A. Within certain limits.
Q. Within what limits?
A. You cannot say from an examination of the contents of the stomach just how long digestion has been
going on, to the minute. As I mentioned it, in speaking of this, it was somewhere from two to three
hours. I should not dare say exactly. I should say to the best of my judgment about two and a half hours,
under normal circumstances.
Q. You would not be surprised if the facts were such that it was not more than two hours?
A. We know of cases where food had been eaten at night, and stayed in the stomach all night, and was
there in the morning, and would be thrown up.
Q. Indigestion?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. With reference to the time the digestion had been going on in either case here, you would not be
willing to put it positively within any given time?
A. I should say half an hour, more or less.
Q. Have you been to the house?
A. I was in the house the morning of the 10th of August.
Q. With whom did you go?
A. Dr. Dolan.
Q. Did you make an examination of the premises?
A. Only a rough one.
Q. For instance, did you see the sitting room?
A. I did.
Q. Was the position of the couch in that room pointed out to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you examine the wall and the door?
A. Yes Sir. I did not examine them to make careful measurements and notes.
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Q. You have the examination well in mind?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go up stairs?
A. I did.
Q. And went into the front room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And saw the position of things there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And the place where she lay was pointed out to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And where the carpet was taken up?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The bureau was perhaps shown to you, and the stains upon the drawer?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. If one were struck by some instrument with a sharp cutting edge, which would penetrate through the
skull and the eye and down the whole length of the face to the line of the chin, would there be any
spurting of blood from such a blow as that, commonly?
A. There probably would, if an artery was cut.
Q. There is an artery that could be cut by such a blow?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In what direction would the blood naturally spurt, if the artery were cut in the way I have described?
A. The direction in which the artery pointed.
Q. In what direction does the artery point?
A. I dont know. It would depend upon which artery were cut, and the position of the head.
Q. Suppose the head lay on the right side so the left side was exposed, and the person was lying down
upon the couch, the feet on the floor, an the head on the arm, and this blow was cut in the way I have
described, what direction do you think the blood would spurt naturally and commonly from such a blow
as that?
A. I do not think the spurting of the blood which made the stains in that room had anything to do with
the artery particularly. An artery never spurts over three feet.
Q. Did you see the wall paper which was immediately above the back of the sofa?
A. Yes Sir, and the stains on the door leading into the kitchen, and those on the door leading into the
parlor.
Q. I was calling your attention chiefly to these on the wall paper near the foot of the sofa near the dining
room door, where the spots were, many of them, in a semi-circular form; could they not have been
caused by the spurting of an artery?
A. I should think more by the spattering from the instrument that struck the blow. I have seen a similar
spattering from a blow by a
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club, where there was no artery cut. If a blow strikes with sufficient force, on the head, or anywhere else,
it will cause spattering in all directions. I have seen that repeatedly.
Q. What artery could be cut by the blow I have described, if any?
A. I would not want to answer that, because my anatomy is rather old. I do not remember all the
arteries.
Q. You mean your knowledge of anatomy?
A. Yes Sir.
(Proof of the photographs by the photographer is waived. Mr. Adams can have duplicates of them.)
Q. There is a photograph which you see shows the wall of the room and the wall paper of that room
which you looked into.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Assuming that the position of the person is practically like that you see before you, with the head a
little higher upon the arm, might not the blow I have described, have cut an artery which would have
spurted and made spots upon the wall paper immediately over head?
A. Made part of them I should think, yes.
Q. Others you think might have been made by being spattered from the instrument that was used in the
assault?
A. I should think that was amore plausible explanation of some of them, particularly those on the
picture glass and frame and those at any distance must have come from spattering. They could not have
come from an artery spurt.
Q. You mean by spattering, thrown from the instrument that was used in the assault?
A. Spattering from the blow, the same as spattering takes place when you throw a stone into a mud
puddle, spattering in all directions.
Q. The wound was bleeding, and every subsequent blow would make the blood spatter?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The rest of the blood would fall from the instrument that made the repeated blows?
A. Yes Sir, if there was enough of it.
Q. Have you made any experiments, or are you familiar with the disposition of blood spots as they
strike surfaces, so you can tell in a general way the direction from which they came?
A. You can sometimes.
Q. Assuming that the person stood behind, the assailant stood behind the person upon the sofa, and the
blow was struck from behind, and blood came from the instrument which was making the assault, and
struck the wall or the paper, what would be the shape — if I do not put the question too general— what
would be the shape of those blood spots upon the paper?
A. More or less elongated, and in the direction away from the point
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from which the blood flew, whether it flew from the head or wound, or whether it flew from the
instrument. It would be away from the point at which the blood left its original position before it flew.
Then in addition to that, it would be an elongated stain, more or less, according to circumstances, and the
coagulated blood is usually at the distant end, that is the farther end of the stain, from the object from
which it came.
Q. That is to say, some of these spots that you saw were sort of pear shaped?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The big end of the pear would be the farthest from the object?
A. It might be the little end, but it would contain generally the heaviest part of the blood. But the
appearance upon the wall of the pear shape would not necessarily bring the larger end towards the spot.
Sometimes the blood sort of skips, as you skip a stone on the water, and it leaves a smallish stain
beyond the larger one, where the blood spot first touched. That gives it sometimes an appearance as
though the smallest part of the blood stain was at the farther end. Usually, though, if it all makes one
battledoor shaped spot, the heaviest part of the blood is at the larger end which is away from the point
at which the blood originated.
Q. You mean larger in size?
A. Larger in extent, and containing the heaviest portion of the blood.
Q. That is farther away from the point of contact, the blow?
A. Yes Sir. Then if the force with which the blood flies is strong enough, there will be a little skip, and
make a smaller one beyond, and perhaps it will be carried beyond.
Q. Did you weigh this ax?
A. I did not.
Q. Did you measure the handle?
A. Yes.
Q. The hatchet that is produced?
A. Yes. I have a record here of it, somewhere. I did measure it, but here is a little foot rule. (Measures.)
It is just a foot from the head.
Q. From the head, the outer end?
A. 14 inches.
Q. From the end of the handle to the end of the helve in the head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Are there any changes in that since you have had it?
A. Only what I have done by scraping it a little.
Q. The edges &c?
A. I have scraped off some of these stains. There is an accumulation there on the inner edge of both
sides. This I have called right hand, I have marked it with an R; that is my mark simply to designate
what I
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term right, and what I term left.
Q. What causes the coagulation of blood?
A. It is the fibrene it contains, or albumen.
Q. When does it most rapidly coagulate?
A. After leaving the body.
Q. On exposure to the air?
A. Yes Sir, very quickly.
Q. It would not coagulate then in a vacuum?
A. I have forgotten whether it would or not.
Q. There would be no exposure to the air in a vacuum, if it was a proper vacuum?
A. No.
Q. Can you tell from the appearance of blood after it has left the body, by its coagulation, with any
definiteness, the length of time that a person has been dead?
A. I hardly feel competent to answer that question. A wound looks a little differently, more glazed over,
as I remember.
Q. I am asking about the blood itself.
A. You could tell something by the extent to which a stain had dried. Take a pool for instance; if it was
dried more and soaked into a fabric on which it was, more, you could tell whether it was absolutely fresh
or not.
Q. Could you tell within a half an hour, with any definiteness, from the appearance of the blood on the
clothing, how long the person had been dead, suppose it was on a wound, or carpet or any fabric?
A. You could tell whether it was put there freshly, or an hour or two old.
Q. Could you tell within a half an hour of the time?
A. I do not think you could tell within a very few minutes.
Q. Would similar blood coagulate more rapidly at some times than others, after it had left the human
body, depending somewhat upon the temperature and weather?
A. Practically it would be the same time.
Q. Practically the same?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you examined any of the spots in the house, or any of the pieces that have been taken from the
house, with reference to the blood on them?
A. I have just mentioned those on the carpet.
Q. I said the pieces of the house, the wood work on the door or walls?
A. No Sir I have not.
Q. (Producing bits of wood.) Have you any glass with you by which you could make a sort of an
examination of this wood work, anything by which you could make a test here?
A. I have simply a condensing lens by which I could tell whether it looked like blood or not; that is all.
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Q. Do you remember the room in the house called the kitchen?
A. I was in that.
Q. And its relative location to the room in which Mr. Borden was found, where you were shown the
paper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You recollect there was a door leading from that into the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir. I just mentioned that door frame.
Q. You noticed in the little bit of moulding that went up, making the frame work, a little spot of blood?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was a spot of blood, taking into account the situation of Mr. Borden on the sofa, from the
direction of his head, over his feet, towards the door?
A. Yes Sir, it was about seven feet away.
Q. Have you formed any theory as to the position in which the assailant stood when the blow was
given?
A. There was only one thing that would throw the slightest light on that to my mind, that was a long
stain an inch and 3/4 or two inches long, on the dining room door frame.
Q. You saw that?
A. Yes Sir, that looked like a blood stain. It struck me it would have been impossible for that stain to
have been made, except from a point somewhere in the dining room. It is only guess work. It occurred to
me that probably it fell from the instrument which was used.
Q. And the person stood in the dining room when they were giving the blow?
A. Yes Sir, the first blow. That was the only thing which would throw, to my mind, any light on it.
Q. Do you recall this spot now presented to you on the dining room frame, as similar to the one you
saw?
A. Yes Sir. It looked to me like blood at that time. There is no light here. What I want to get is sky light.
(Mr. Wood goes to the window in the next room, and looks at the spot.) It does not look like a blood
stain to me now.
Q. What does it look like?
A. I do not know.
Q. Tobacco?
A. I do not know; it is a yellowish stain.
Q. Look at that with the glass (fourth hatchet), and see if you see any appearance of blood upon that.
A. I could hardly do that in five minutes, to go over it carefully at all. I probably spent six or eight hours
on that other hatchet. From a rough examination, I do not see anything, except on the head here; and iron
rust always looks like blood.
Q. Is there anything upon the hatchet that you see there now, that
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indicates anything but dust and rust?
A. No Sir, I do not see anything now.
(Mr. Knowlton) Regard that as put in your charge now, and take charge of it from this time up.
Q. Did you observe the parlor door, which was the door opposite the head of the sofa?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were there any spots upon it then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you examine those spots in a way to get a general notion of their situation and appearance?
A. I looked at them.
Q. Would those spots, taking the theory that you have advanced, naturally come from there in
consequence of a blow stuck by a person standing inside the dining room?
A. They might have. They might have come from the position here, on the head of the lounge or sofa.
Q. Is there anything to conflict with the theory that the assailant, whoever it was that gave these blows,
stood behind, and inside the sitting room?
A. I know of nothing, except of course they could not have passed through the assailant’s body. The
assailant stood between that and the door.
Q. That the spots could not?
A. No, the blood that made the spots.
Q. Suppose it was lifted, and rained down upon the body of Mr. Borden they might have gone over the
head of the assailant, and gone upon the parlor door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That would be a natural thing to happen?
A. Yes Sir, if the assailant stood between the door and the body.
Q. From your knowledge of the flowing of the blood, would not you think it would be natural and
probable that the assailant would receive more or less blood upon his person and clothes?
A. I should say it was impossible for him not to.
Q. They would naturally come upon what part of the body? Assuming that the assailant stood in the
rear and behind the head of this sofa; what part of the body would naturally be covered by spots?
A. Any part. I should think any of the upper part of the body.
Q. Hands, clothes, neck, face, hair, or anything that was exposed about the locality of the head of the
sofa?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There is a photograph (No. 3) which represents the front chamber which you visited, where Mrs.
Borden is lying upon her face. You observe the wounds upon the back of the head there, the right half of
the back of the head?
Page 384
A. I cannot see the head here at all.
Q. Assuming that the wounds were upon the right half of the back of the head, and on the right side of
the head, on the right of the line drawn through the center of the head diagonally from the center toward
the back, and on the right half of the head; how should you say the person would have to stand
delivering such blows?
A. Over the body.
Q. And in standing over the body, would it be possible for the assailant to deliver those blows without
getting spattered with blood?
A. I should think not.
Q. Standing as you imagine those blows must have been given, the blood would hit what portion of the
assailant’s body?
A. Anywhere from the knees up, more particularly.
Q. In other words, they would be exposed to the same opportunity for being spattered with blood that
the assailant of Mr. Borden was down stairs?
A. Yes Sir, only in this case, there would be apt to be more staining, or more blood stains on the lower
portion of the body than the upper, than in the case of Mr. Borden; that is simply on account of the
position of the victim.
Q. That would be upon the waist or shoulders?
A. Anywhere above the feet.
RE-DIRECT
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Was there anything in the appearance of the stomach that indicated anything
abnormal or irregular in the process of digestion?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or interruption?
A. No Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) I will now put into your hands that, before I forget it, and all the things here. They are
the things we have already produced in the case, and also that piece of plastering.
(Mr. Jennings) We concede that is a blood spot on the plastering. We want it to remain in the position it
is. I am willing to deposit this in the custody of the court, and have it remain here. It is a piece of
plastering on which I wish the spot to remain in the same place it is now.
(Court) Are you willing to concede it is human blood?
(Mr. Jennings) Yes Sir.
(After a little discussion, the Court rules it must be left in the custody of the Court, and no assurance is
given as to what shall become of it.)
(Court) Is it easy to efface blood stains from a hatchet, or the handle of a hatchet, with water, when they
are fresh, so that there would be no indication of the stain left?
A. O, certainly, it is possible to wash it off.
Page 385
(Mr. Adams) You say it is possible; is it easy?
A. I answered that.
Q. You said it was possible?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is it easy?
A. It depends entirely upon what the surface is.
Q. From wood?
A. If the wood is polished and hard it can be washed off very quickly.
Q. Take that particular helve, would it be easy to wash blood off of that?
A. It would this part, but it is not in there, and it would not be easy to wash it out from all these holes
in the end; and in between the helve and the head where these deep cracks are, which I have very
carefully examined, it would be a very difficult matter.
Q. You say you have examined into these deep cracks, and all about the head, and there is no blood there
whatever?
A. No Sir.
(Mr. Jennings) We have concluded to surrender this to the custody of the Court, but I should like,
before anything is done with it, to have the opportunity to file a motion that this be left in the custody
of the Court, and it be heard upon it.
(Mr. Adams) It is to remain in the Court until we have a chance to be heard.
Page 386
JAMES WINWOOD
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. James Winwood.
Q. You are an undertaker?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have something to do with the bodies of Andrew J. Borden and Mrs. Borden?
A. I had charge of them, yes sir.
Q. Were you the one who removed the effects from the body?
A. I took the things out of Andrew J. Borden’s clothes.
Q. Did you give whatever you took to Dr. Dolan?
A. I did.
Q. Without bothering to produce them, will you kindly tell me what they were, in the shape of
valuables?
A. I think there was $78. in bills in the pocket book.
Q. In a pocket book?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What pocket was that pocket book in?
A. In the inside pocket in the coat, I should think.
Q. In the coat pocket?
A. Yes Sir, inside pocket, inside the coat.
Q. Not inside the vest. What else in the shape of valuables?
A. In that pocket there was some minor papers, which we did not examine into, just opened them, and
saw there was no more money in there, or notes. That is all we examined for.
Q. There was a watch and chain?
A. Yes Sir, in his vest.
Q. Anythingelse?
A. In his pants pockets some loose change, two or three dollars in silver.
Q. What size bills were these?
A. I think about $5.
Q. All in bills?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whatever you took, you turned over to Dr. Dolan, the Medical Examiner?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you find anything valuable in her pockets?
A. I did not have anything to do with her pocket at all.
(Some things are brought in wrapped in a handkerchief.)
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Were these keys all upon the ring?
A. I do not remember; I should think they were; but I would not be positive about it.
Q. Did you not find either of the keys loose in his pocket?
A. I could not say; I do not recollect.
Page 387
Q. You do not remember whether you put any of the keys on the ring after you found them, or not?
A. I did not put any of them on the ring.
Q. So all the keys that are on the ring now, so far as you know, were there when you took them from
his pocket?
A. They were.
Q. Do you recollect whether you found either of the keys in his vest pocket?
A. I should say not.
Q. You think they were all in his pants pocket?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you personally attend to preparing the bodies for burial?
A. I did.
Q. Can you give us any description of the wounds upon Mr. Borden’s face, as to the direction?
A. Well, I should think they were given from behind; as I looked at them, I judged they were.
Q. As to the direction of the wound, whether it was right straight up and down, or whether it slanted in
towards the nose?
A. This first wound went down there, right down straight through, a very clean cut; it was not ragged at
all, just one clean cut.
Q. Where was it?
A. A little more than half way the upper part of the nose.
Q. About at the bridge of the nose?
A. About.
(Court) On that side of the nose?
A. On the side that was up.
Q. On the left side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How far did that extend?
A. Right down through the chin, right through on the same side.
Q. Was there any other long cut upon his face?
A. The other cuts were so close together, I should say two or three of them were almost as long as that.
Q. Two or three others?
A. Yes, almost as long as that cut, perhaps not quite.
Q. Did you at any time receive permission from Dr. Dolan to bury the bodies?
A. Well, he delivered the bodies to me.
Q. When?
A. That afternoon, about half past five.
Q. For burial?
A. I presume it was for burial; there was not anything said about what it was for.
Q. What did he say when he delivered them to you?
Page 388
A. Dr. Tourtellot asked me if Dr. Dolan had given me charge of the bodies. I said no. The Doctor came
along a few minutes afterwards, I said to him “are you through with the bodies?”
Q. You said to whom?
A. Dr. Dolan.
Q. Said what?
A. I asked him if he had finished, if he was through with the bodies?
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, “yes, you may take them now.”
Q. Anythingelse?
A. That is all.
Q. Now when was that?
A. Well, I should think it was about half past five.
Q. What day?
A. The day of the murder.
Q. August 4th?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any communication from him after that in regard to the burial of the bodies?
A. I did the morning of the funeral.
Q. What day was that?
A. Saturday.
Q. When Saturday?
A. One of my assistants came to Mr. Borden’s house, I should think after nine o’clock, perhaps half
past nine.
Q. Saturday, somewhere about nine o’clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What were you notified then?
A. I was notified not to bury them.
Q. But between the time of having the bodies turned over to you by Dr. Dolan, and nine o’clock
Saturday morning, had you proceeded to prepare the bodies for burial?
A. I had.
Q. And were they all prepared for burial?
A. They were.
Q. Do you know whether Dr. Dolan knew that you were preparing them for burial?
A. I do not know.
Q. Did you see him up in the house there, while you were engaged in it?
A. The only time I saw him, I went in with him on Friday night.
Q. Went in with him where?
A. Into the room where the bodies were.
Q. Were they then in the caskets?
A. No. They were on boards; they were not prepared then.
Page 389
Q. Was anything said about burying them then?
A. No Sir.
Q. He did not notify you not to bury them?
A. No Sir.
JOHN DENNIE
(Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. John Dennie.
Q. What is your business?
A. Stone cutter.
Q. At any time were you employed in the yard of Mr. Crowe?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you remember the day of this tragedy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you employed there that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What part of the day?
A. From quarter to seven to five o’clock.
Q. You went away at dinner?
A. I went into the barn.
Q. You remained on the premises?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time did you take your dinner?
A. 12 o’clock.
Q. What part of the yard were you in?
A. On the east end of it, on the Third street side.
Q. Near Third street; or near the rear?
A. Close to Third street; the fence was between me and the sidewalk.
Q. That fence separates the Crowe premises from what other premises?
A. From Third street.
Q. Were you anywhere near the north fence, or were you nearer the south fence of the Crowe property?
A. Nearer the south fence.
Q. Of the Crowe property?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you in a position to see the Chagnon yard?
A. I could not see the Chagnon yard from where I was.
Q. Could you see the Borden yard?
A. Not unless I stepped out in front of the shed.
Q. Where you were, you could not see the Borden yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Could you see the Crowe yard?
A. Yes, I was in it.
Q. How much of the Crowe yard could you see?
A. All the way up from the fence that divided it from Dr. Kelley’s?
Page 390
Q. That is the rear fence?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At any time did you see any person passing through or from Kelley’s yard, so far as you could see?
A. No Sir, nothing but the men that were going out and in there.
Q. The people who were at work there?
A. Yes Sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Jennings) In between where you were working and the Chagnon yard, was there a large building
or barn?
A. Barn?
Q. Right between you and the Chagnon yard?
A. No, there was 20 feet of a fence that runs out.
Q. Running from the barn down to Third street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Then the barn occupied the rest of the space?
A. Yes Sir; it forms the line.
Q. You could not see over that fence at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. In order to see over into the Borden yard, you would have to come out to Third street, and go to the
West, and go by the corner of this barn, would you not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You could not see what took place in the Crowe yard, back of that barn, could you, to the west of
that barn?
A. No Sir.
Q. All you could do would be to look up this lane directly towards the west?
A. Through to Second street, the gap in the fence.
Q. So the biggest part of the Crowe yard was hidden from you when you were in there?
A. Yes Sir, except what was immediately in front of me.
Q. Did you see Mr. Wixon over there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it before you stopped work at noon?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was before 12 o’clock, was it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see him get over the fence?
A. No Sir. He stood in the gap in the fence.
Q. You did not see him come through the Borden yard, and dont know how he got into the Crowe yard?
A. No Sir.
Page 391
PHILLIP HARRINGTON
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What is your name?
A. Phillip Harrington.
Q. Any middle name?
A. No Sir.
Q. You are a police officer, Mr. Harrington?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was your attention first called to this matter?
A. At noon of the fourth day of August. I was at home at dinner.
Q. Did you go there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How soon did you go?
A. I took the next car down town which left at the City Hall twenty minutes after the hour, after 12. I
got off the car at the corner of Rodman and Second street and hurried down towards the Borden house.
Q. You live up at the south end?
A. Yes Sir. I got there about twenty minutes past 12.
Q. I had the impression those came on the quarter?
A. Not my way.
Q. When you got there, who did you find there?
A. There was quite a large crowd in front of the house. The first person I saw that I recognized, was
Officer Hyde. I went in through the gate that leads directly to the front door. I walked along the yard
north. Right in front of the gate that leads into the house was Officer Hyde. I said to him——. I went
then to the rear, the side door on the north side, and saw Mr. Sawyer. He allowed me to pass through. I
saw Officer Devine and quite a number in the kitchen, I do not know how many, and I do not recollect
who they were. I asked a question, and the consequence was I went into the sitting room. The door was
shut, I opened it, and went in. On the lounge, with the head towards the west, was a form partially
covered with a sheet.
Q. You found the body of Mr. Borden?
A. I could not recognize who it was.
Q. Why could you not recognize who it was?
A. It was marked so.
Q. Any other part but the face?
A. That is all, sir. Then I went out through the front hall up stairs. In going up I turned towards the door
on the north side of the hall way; and under a bed on the other side, I saw a form of a woman.
Q. You saw Mrs. Borden?
A. I continued up stairs, and saw the woman laid out there.
Q. Then what did you do?
A. I then turned and came back again to the hall, and met officer Riley and officer Co—– standing on the
threshold of the door which
Page 392
leads into the store room. I stepped into the hall to a door on the east, which was partially open.
Through that door I saw Miss Lizzie Borden and Miss Alice Russell inside the room. I walked into the
room and told Miss Borden I would like to speak to her about this matter. As I went in, I shut the door
to, Miss Russell got hold of it and closed it completely. Miss Russell stood beside a chair close to the
door by which I entered on the north side. Miss Borden stood at the foot of her bed which runs
diagonally across the room, or cross ways. She stood at the north west corner at the foot.
Q. Who did?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden. I asked her if she could tell me anything about this crime. She said “nothing at
all.”
Q. What was her appearance at that time?
A. Shall I characterize the way she looked or acted?
Q. I do not want you to give any argumentative terms; describe her exact appearance.
A. She was cool and collected, and stood erect without any support at all. She said she could tell me
nothing at all. I asked her if she could tell me anything about this. She said she could tell me nothing at
all. I then asked her when she last saw her father. She said when he returned from the post office, he had
some mail. “I asked him had he any mail for me; and he said no.” Then I asked her who was in the house
at the time she saw him murdered. She said there was nobody there that she knew of but the girl, Maggie,
and herself. She called her Maggie. I asked her where she was at the time the murder was committed. She
said in the barn. I then asked her if she had any suspicion of the farm help; that was owing to what I had
heard, the reason I asked that was from something I heard. She said “no, they are reliable men, and have
been in our employ for several years.” So I asked her then if she had any suspicion of anybody. She said
no. Then I asked her how long she was in the barn. She said twenty minutes. I asked her, could she give
the exact time. She said twenty minutes. I said “is it not hard to fix the exact time; was it not half an
hour?” She said, no, it was 20 minutes. I said possibly it was 15. She said no it was 20 minutes I was in
the barn. I then told her I thought it would be well for her to be careful what she said at this time, owing
to the excitement. I said perhaps on the morrow she would be in a better frame of mind to give a more
clear statement of the facts as she knew them. She made a curtesy, and said “no, I can tell you all I know
now just as well as at any other time.” I then asked her if her father had any person that she would
consider an enemy, that she knew of. She said no. I asked when she was going to or from the barn, did
she see anybody in the yard or around the yard, did she see anybody pass by the front of the yard, or
come towards the house. She said “no, I did not.” I said the barn is not a great distance from the house.
She said no sir. Said I, it
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being such a short distance to the screen door, anybody making a noise, whether being open or shut,
would you not hear it, and why not. She said “well, I was up in the loft.” I says “while in the loft, did
you hear any noise in or about or around the yard, or see anybody in the yard?” She said no sir. I then
asked her to be very careful to recollect if there was anybody she had any suspicion of. I says “no matter
how insignificant it may appear to you, or how remote it may be from the present time, it may be of
great importance to the police in ferreting out this matter, and however light it is, you will please let me
know.” Then she said several weeks ago there was a man called to see father, and they before parting had
very angry words, the conversation became very animated. Says I “what was it about?” She said it was
about a store. I says “did you see this man?” “No Sir”. I asked her then how she knew that they had
animated conversation and grew angry. She says “they were in one room and I was in another, and I
overheard part of the conversation.” “What was it”? “I heard father say, no sir, I will not let my store for
any such business. He then went away.” I asked her did she see him coming to or going from the house.
She said no sir. She said he came back here two weeks ago, and they had another conversation, a part of
which she overheard. Before they got through, she said they got quite angry again; but finally before they
finished, father said, when you are in town again, come, and I will let you know more about it; so they
parted. She did not see them part, but it was the last she heard, she said. Then said I, he must be a man
from out of town. Well, she says “I should judge so.” Then you do not know?” She said no. Then said I
“perhaps it will be well, Miss Borden, for you not to submit to any further interview today, and
tomorrow you may recollect of having seen this man, having heard his name, or of having heard your
father say something about it”; so I said “it will be well perhaps for you not to submit to any further
interview today.”
Q. Is that all?
A. I think there was somethingelse there. I asked her then if she heard her father say anything at all
about it. She said no sir. I think that was about the end.
Q. Then where did you go?
A. I then started down stairs. O, while standing there talking to her, Miss Russell during the early part
of the conversation, stood up, not very long, perhaps two minutes, and she sat down in this chair which
was directly behind her. She was very pale, if I may be allowed to —-
Q. I do not know as I care for Miss Russell’s appearance. What did you do then?
A. I then went down stairs through the front hall, through the sitting room and into the kitchen. As I
entered the kitchen, I saw several officers, I cannot recollect them now, because I did not pay much
attention to them, being so accustomed to see them around, one of
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them I think was Devine again. Dr. Bowen stood there close by the stove. I walked by him to the east—
Q. This does not in any way effect Dr. Bowen. For any reason did you look in the stove?
A. Not at all.
Q. Not at all? What did you see in the stove?
A. I was going to tell what he had in his hand. When he took the cover off the stove, the fire was very
low, and there appeared to be, or there was, rather larger coal, or larger remains of something that
appeared to be burnt paper, and it was quite large. I should say quite large judging from the size of the
stove, comparatively speaking.
Q. Why did you say it looked like burnt paper?
A. Because I have seen burnt paper before, that is all the reason.
Q. Where was it?
A. On the back part of the fire place, or the fire part, whatever you call it, the fire part of the stove.
Q. You mean the place where the fire is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What sort of a fire was it that there was there?
A. I could not swear that, but there was a small red spot down in the center.
(Mr. Adams) Not a blood spot.
A. A small spark of fire there that looked to me like coal, but that I would not swear to.
Q. You could not tell whether it was a coal or wood fire?
A. No Sir; but that is the impression I had at the time, it was coal.
Q. Did you go into the barn?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Go into the second story?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How high was that, give a general idea of it as near as you can. Nobody has described that yet.
A. Shall I tell all my experience in the barn?
Q. Yes, if you please.
A. I went up to the barn about three o’clock, I am not certain about the time. I was so pushed that day, I
did not pay much attention to the time after that. On the ground floor was Marshal Hilliard, Riley,
Connors, Doherty, and a man named O’Toole. The marshal gave orders to search that barn, and search it
thoroughly. We began work, and he with us. It contained an old sleigh and two carriages.
Q. This was down stairs?
A. Yes Sir, a number of barrels, and quite a number of old window frames, some containing glass, and
others not. We searched all around there, without finding anything we thought necessary to take. Then
the marshal and I went up stairs. When we got there, I saw officer Conners, Riley and Doherty, they had
preceeded us, but I did not see them go up. We stood there a little while. The Marshal gave orders
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to search that barn thoroughly, and pitch all the hay over. It was a common barn, with a barn roof, and
from the eaves to the floor perhaps it is five feet or five feet and a half. It then runs up to an angle
perhaps 12 feet, maybe a little more.
Q. 12 feet from the floor?
A. Yes Sir, up to a point.
Q. 12 feet high in the middle?
A. Yes, maybe 15.
Q. How large a room is it?
A. It is a room perhaps 25 feet, maybe more, maybe 30 feet.
Q. If it is the entire length and width of the barn, the plan will give it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What windows are there?
A. On the east, and one on the west, and in the middle of the barn facing the south there is a door; that
was open when I got there.
Q. How were the windows, shut or open?
A. The window on the west was open.
Q. Towards the front?
A. Yes. And I think, but I am not certain, that some of the men opened the window on the east to get
air. It was very warm up there.
Q. That was three o’clock in the afternoon?
A. Yes Sir. There was a pidgeon loft on the east end of the barn, up above the window.
Q. Was there hay in the barn?
A. Yes sir, considerable hay.
Q. How much?
A. Close to half a ton.
Q. Anythingelse in the loft of the barn?
A. Yes Sir, a lot of old grass there that did not seem to be cured properly, such stuff as they use for
bedding, it had the appearance of sea grass. There was an old fire place that stood over in that north west
corner, leaning against the side.
Q. Not that belongs to the barn?
A. No Sir, put away. This was more of a store room than a barn.
Q. This was up stairs?
A. Yes sir. In the south west corner was piled a lot of old lumber odds and ends. On top of that there
were three or four racks such as are used to hold peonies up when growing, painted green. These racks
were on the east side of the door, that was the south door. On the east side of that door, between that
and the stairway was another pile of lumber, and a box which contained straw, I thought it was a box
that at one time had had glass packed in it.
Q. Was there a bench there?
A. I think not. This may have been a bench that I called a pile of lumber, but if it was, there was a lot of
odds and ends of lumber put on top of it. I am not positive about that.
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Q. Mr. Adams and I agree there was one there.
A. The hay lay on the north side of the barn, but there was quite a space from the end of the hay to the
east end of the barn. The hay was pitched from where it was at that time towards the east until we got
pretty well filled up, and then was pitched towards the west and south. When we had thoroughly gone
through with that, we went down stairs into the yard, and under directions of the marshal we went
through the cellar. In the cellar were Marshal Fleet, Dr. Dutra, another police officer and myself, I do not
know who, but I think it was Devine, I am not positive about that. When we went into the wash room
laying on the floor were two axes and a hatchet. I had seen another hatchet that day before which was
not in that collection.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Jennings) When was this, Saturday?
A. Thursday, the afternoon of the murder.
Q. I thought you said you saw a hatchet the day before?
A. No, I saw a hatchet previous to that, earlier in the day.
Q. Where did you see the hatchets lying on the floor?
A. They were lying on the wash room floor, directly in front of the door that leads to the back yard,
about three or four feet from the bottom step, three feet perhaps.
Q. Did you make any examination of them?
A. No Sir, I did not.
Q. Were they hatchets or axes, or both?
A. One hatchet and two axes; the other was missing, but we found it afterwards.
Q. This was at what time in the afternoon?
A. I think I went there about three o’clock; but I lost all reckoning of time that afternoon, because I was
too busy.
Q. Was it about half past four or five?
A. It was not as late as that.
Q. About four?
A. Possibly.
Q. Did you hunt for the other hatchet then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you find it?
A. In the front cellar at the west end of the house.
Q. In the west end of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The west end or east end?
A. The west end. Those were in the east end, in the wash room.
Q. I thought they were in the laundry, in the south east room?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was this other hatchet?
A. It was at the west, down near the coal cellar.
Q. As you came from the laundry towards the west end of the house, on which side of the passageway
was it?
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A. It was just to the right, at the end as you went to the coal cellar.
Q. Was it before you got to the coal cellar?
A. Just at the entrance.
Q. Wherebouts there?
A. It was lying on a block there.
Q. On a large block that stands up there?
A. A block that is commonly used for chopping wood on.
Q. That is almost directly opposite the furnace?
A. A little further west, but not much, close by.
Q. Right by the side of the entrance into the coal cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What kind of a hatchet was that you found there?
A. As big as the hatchet I saw when I first entered the house, and resembled the one you had here this
morning.
Q. What time was that?
A. I got there about 20 minutes past 12.
Q. You thought this was the same hatchet you saw then?
A. It looked like it.
Q. Where did you see that the first time?
A. As I came down stairs after a conversation with Miss Borden, I went into the kitchen, and somebody
came in the kitchen there with three or four axes or hatchets in their hands, I think it was Dr. Dolan;
about that I am not positive.
Q. Brought them up into the kitchen?
A. Yes. I am not certain about its being Dr. Dolan. That was the first I saw of them.
Q. Did you see him, or anybodyelse, examine those in the kitchen?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he look them over at all?
A. Not in my presence.
Q. What did they do with them in the kitchen?
A. Dr. Dolan called me towards him, and gave me certain orders, and I obeyed them, and he left the
room.
Q. What did you do in consequence of what he told you?
A. I watched two or three cans that were put in my care, to see that nobody disturbed them.
Q. What became of the axes and hatchets?
A. He disappeared, Dr. Dolan did; that is the last I saw of them. I did not see them after that until I
went down cellar.
Q. Did they disappear when he did?
A. I do not know.
Q. Was that claw headed hatchet we had here this morning the one you found on the chopping block?
A. I cannot say about the one I found; it resembled it.
Q. It looks like the hatchet you found on the chopping block in the afternoon?
A. Yes.
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Q. About the same size and weight?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did it have a claw end?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is that the only claw end hatchet that you saw around the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I took it from where I found it, and brought it back into the laundry, as you call it, the wash room.
Marshal Fleet was there, he suggested—- He took the hatchet and we went into a room to the north of
that, which contained some boxes and barrels, and he put it on a scaffold at the east of the door as you go
in, behind some boxes.
Q. That is in the north east corner of the room that opens out of the laundry?
A. That is right.
Q. Now when you were talking with Miss Lizzie in her room, are you sure that she told you that her
father told the man if he came to town, to come and see him again?
A. Positive, sir.
Q. Did not she say that the man said that he was coming to town, and he would see him again, if he did
come to town?
A. No Sir.
Q. You are sure about that?
A. Yes Sir, because it was followed by saying “I will then tell you more about it.”
Q. Which said that?
A. She said that her father said so.
Q. Did you make a memorandum of this conversation?
A. Notes of it, that is all.
Q. Took notes of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you testified to it before?
A. No Sir, this is the first and only time.
Q. You did not testify at the Inquest at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Have you a memorandum of that part of the testimony?
A. I have not it with me, no.
Q. Have you a memorandum of that part of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you look at it before you testified this morning?
A. No Sir.
Q. So what you are testifying to this morning is simply your best recollection of the conversation, as it
was given to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 399
(Plaintiff rests.)
(Mr. Adams) Before the defense proceeds with this case, I should like your Honor’s ruling with
reference to this. Some evidence here of a negative character has been offered as to an attempt to buy
some prussic acid. Whether true or false, I desire to ask your Honor to rule that out of the record, as it
does not pertain to this case. The defendant is charged with homicide of Mr. Andrew J. Borden with an ax, and that alone; therefore any evidence of any other form of, or attempted form of, killing, would not be pertinent to thiscase. I agree it is negative testimony, but I ask your Honor, before we proceed with our case, that that should be excluded, should be ruled out now. It is always in order to make such a motion as to evidence that has gone in, but that was understood de bene.
(Court) It was not admitted de bene.
(Mr. Adams) I ask this as a special ruling.
(Court) Does the government rely upon that testimony?
(Mr. Knowlton) Yes Sir. It does not follow because a man is charged with committing a crime in some
other way, that an attempt was made to commit it in some other way, which failed for some reason, can
not be shown. I do not care to argue the force or effect of the testimony at present.
(Mr. Adams) This testimony is absolutely negative in its character. There is no evidence tending to
show that it was even an attempt. I ask your Honor, as a special ruling, to rule out that evidence,
whatever it is, which has gone in here, as not being pertinent to the issue which we are trying, and not
material. It does not go so far, even, as to prove an attempt, taking my brother’s own reasoning, and it
clearly ought not to be a part of, or to encumber the record.
(Court) I think it must stand for the present at least. It may be of no great importance or materiality, but
I think the evidence must stand as it is, and I will hear the defence, such as it is. I think I must decline the
ruling that you ask.
Page 400
DR. SEABURY W. BOWEN
Q. (Mr. Adams) What is your full name?
A. Seabury W. Bowen.
Q. And your place of residence?
A. Second street, Fall River.
Q. How long have you resided there?
A. About twenty years.
Q. And you have been in practice how long, as a physician and surgeon?
A. 25 years.
Q. You are in general practice?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any particular specialty, or are you in general practice as a physician and surgeon in
this city?
A. General practice.
Q. You were a neighbor of the Bordens, both family physician and friend, I believe?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. If your house is correctly described to me, it was diagonally across the street from Mr. Borden’s
house?
A. Yes.
Q. On the day of the tragedy, you received some information with reference to it, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you then, when that came to you?
A. I was just driving up to my house from the south.
Q. From whom did this information come?
A. It came from my wife, and from a man named Thomas Bowles at the same time.
Q. Thomas Bowles is the one referred to as working in the stable near by there, or connected with the
stable?
A. He works for Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Do you know what time it was then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Can you give me an idea about what time it was?
A. The only means I have of judging, is calculating backwards from the time that I sent a telegram.
Q. Such calculations as you seem fit to make enables you to say in round numbers it was about what
time?
A. Somewhere between ten and twenty minutes past 11 in the morning.
Q. By the way, you have been summoned here, and have been in attendance here constantly, as a
government witness? You have been summoned here every day as a government witness?
A. I have been summoned.
Q. If you do not know by whom, it is very fortunate.
(Mr. Knowlton) I will agree that he was.
Q. In consequence of that information, what did you do?
Page 401
A. I went directly across the street into the side gate, the north gate, into the side door, which was the
north door, and met Miss Lizzie Borden.
Q. What took place? State everything you saw, and what was said and done.
A. I was excited myself, because I received the message in such a manner that I knew something was
wrong. My wife was very much excited indeed, and Mr. Bowles at the same time told me to go across;
and I was prepared for something unusual. I said “Lizzie, what is the matter”? She said “father has been
killed”, or “been stabbed”, I would not say which.
Q. What was her appearance? Describe how she stood, and where she stood, and her general
appearance.
A. I could not describe her appearance, or what she had on very well, because I did not think nor mind.
Q. Describe her manner, and where she stood, not her clothing, everything that took place, as near as
you can recollect.
A. I could not say whether she was in the side hall or in the kitchen, I think in the hall.
Q. What did you do?
A. I asked her where her father was- — or perhaps I asked her—. She said he had been killed, or stabbed.
I says “did you see anybody”? She said she did not see anybody. I asked her if she heard anybody. She
said she did not. Then I asked her where her father was. She said he was in the sitting room. I went
directly through the dining room to the door of the sitting room, the door from the dining room to the
sitting room.
Q. I do not care to go into that about which there is no dispute. You went into the sitting room, and saw
Mr. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who were there when you got to the house?
A. I have heard all the evidence, and I have no doubt that Mrs. Churchill was there, and Miss Lizzie
Borden, those two.
Q. You do not recollect anybodyelse?
A. I do not recollect anybodyelse at that time.
Q. After seeing Mr. Borden, what did you do?
A. I examined him, and satisfied myself that he was dead. I went directly out the door going from the
sitting room to the kitchen, and told whoever there was there that Mr. Borden had been killed, that he
had been murdered.
Q. What was done? Was anything done about a sheet then?
A. I asked very soon for a sheet, I wont say how long afterwards.
Q. Was it at this first time you went to the house you asked for that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who got it?
A. I dont know.
Page 402
Q. Did you see Bridget there?
A. Bridget was there before I left the house.
Q. You do not remember she was when you came the first time?
A. When I went to the door, I do not remember certainly.
Q. What was the position of Mr. Borden on this sofa at this time when you saw him, because, as I
understand it, you were the first person who came in there?
A. He was lying on the right side of his face. The head of the lounge or sofa was near the door leading
from the dining room to the sitting room.
Q. With his head towards the hall?
A. Yes, the front hall door.
Q. Calling your attention to Photograph No. 5, and the position there, I ask you how the position which
you saw him in, varies from that, if it does at all?
A. The only difference I can see, I think the whole form has sunk down, has slipped down. I do not
think the head is quite as high now as it was when I first saw him. The only way I can explain that, is
that by walking through the room, he may have settled down some way.
Q. Settled down into the sofa, up towards the foot of the sofa a little?
A. I thought the head was a little higher up on the arm.
Q. On that part of the arm where it makes the curve to the back of the head?
A. Yes Sir. Under the head was a coat, I think, and a sofa pillow that he was lying on.
Q. Now after this sheet was brought, which you think was sometime during this first visit to the house-
–
A. I am certain it was the first visit.
Q. Whether you went away?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you go?
A. As I was going out, Miss Lizzie asked me if I would not telephone or telegraph to her sister. I said I
would do anything for her that I could.
Q. You did telegraph, or cause a telegram to be sent?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did you go to send it?
A. The Western Union Telegraph Office on Pleasant street, between Second and Main.
Q. How many minutes walk was it?
A. It was a ride, I rode.
Q. You drove?
A. No, I went to my house before that.
Q. You went to the house?
A. To my house across the street.
Q. Then did what?
A. I told my wife what had happened, and consulted the Old Colony
Page 403
time tables to see if she could come on the first train, to see if she was able to.
Q. After consulting the time tables, what did you do? Did you drive to the telegraph office?
A. Yes Sir, my boy drove me down to the telegraph office.
Q. Then right back again?
A. I went from the telegraph office into Mr. Baker’s drug store on Main street. I had a few moments
conversation with Mr. Samuel Flint. Then I drove directly to the Borden house.
Q. When you went in the second time, as I assume you did, who were there then?
A. I could not say I am sure.
Q. Were there people there?
A. Yes, there were people there, some, I do not know who.
Q. While you were there do you recall that Mrs. Churchill came in with some information with reference
to Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that at that time?
A. That was at that time, yes.
Q. What did you do in consequence of that?
A. I went up stairs.
Q. Who went with you?
A. I went alone, as far as I know.
Q. You went through the sitting room and front hall up the front stairs?
A. I am not certain whether I went through the sitting room or dining room.
Q. You got to the front hall, and went up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you got up stairs yourself, what did you see?
A. As I was going into the door, I could look over the bed and see the prostrate form of a lady, a
woman.
Q. I do not care as to any details with reference to the injuries which she had, but I would like to have
you describe the situation at the time of the bureau and the bed, and of her body.
A. The body was just about midway, I should say, between the dressing case and the bed, in that
direction, and the head, I could not say but two or three feet from the wall of the partition of the room. It
is merely a matter of guessing, I do not know anything about it, and never have measured it.
Q. How much space was there on either side of the body, between the bureau and the body, and the
body and the bed?
A. I dont think I went between the dressing case and the body, but I went between the bed and the
body. There was very little room, and I presume I moved the bed in going there.
Q. Was anybody with you when you went there?
A. I do not think there was when I went first.
Page 404
Q. Now I would like to have you describe the position of the hands and the body at that time, when
you first saw it.
A. Mrs. Borden was lying on her face, squarely on her face, perfectly straight, so far as her legs were
concerned, perfectly straight and square on her face, as near as I can remember. Her arms were folded or–
–
Q. Give an illustration with yours.
(Witness shows with his arms.)
Q. Pointing how, abreast, or below the line of the arm pits?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. One across the other?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they up like this, over the head?
A. No Sir.
Q. Are you positive about that?
A. I am positive of that.
Q. What did you do to the body at that time? Did you do anything at the first sight of it?
A. I placed my hand on the head, on the wounds of the head, and satisfied myself that she was dead.
Q. Did you disturb any of the limbs, or anything, did you move them at all?
A. No Sir, I do not think I did.
Q. Do you know how they got to be in this position where they to be subsequently?
A. No, I do not know.
Q. Have you any idea about it?
A. She must have been moved.
Q. You do not know who did it?
A. No Sir.
Q. Later that same day did you see Dr. Dolan there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long after that?
A. I could not say how long.
Q. Was it a little while, 10 or 15 minutes, or half an hour, anything like that?
A. I should say it was somewhere near quarter of an hour, I would not say positive.
Q. Somewhere near quarter of an hour?
A. Somewhere near.
Q. Did you and he then go up stairs together after he got there, sometime?
A. Yes Sir, I think I took him up stairs.
Q. After he came you took him up stairs?
A. I think so, I am not certain.
Q. To see this body?
A. Yes.
Page 405
Q. While he was there, did you make some notes for him?
A. I did sometime; whether it was the first, second or third time, I do not know.
Q. Was there a third time that you went up there?
A. I do not remember.
Q. Were you there a good many times during the day?
A. I went up several times between the first time I went up, and 12 o’clock. I went up with several
parties, I do not remember who.
Q. Were you there later during the day?
A. I think I must have been until probably one o’clock, or half pat 12; I wont say positive.
Q. Do you remember being in Miss Lizzie’s room when the officers came, and they were searching, two
or three o’clock in the afternoon, or 12 or one o’clock, whenever it was?
A. I do not know as I was in the room. I know the officer suggested that Lizzie’s room be searched.
Q. Did you go in to speak to her in consequence of what was said to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you previously had some talk with her about her condition and feelings, and one thing and
another?
A. The second visit I told her to go to her room. I covered Mr. Borden up, and had her friend Miss
Russell take her up to her room. I told her, she better go up to her room, and stay there.
Q. Did she go in consequence of your direction?
A. I think she did in consequence of my direction.
Q. Afterwards you found her there?
A. I think she was there most of the day.
Q. After the officers spoke to you, you found her in her room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which was sometime that morning, or about one o’clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Had you been in the habit of visiting the Borden house?
A. Very seldom, except for business, financial or professional.
Q. Do you remember when you were there before the tragedy?
A. I was there the morning before.
Q. That was Wednesday morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What time?
A. I could not say. It was after my breakfast time; it was somewhere about eight o’clock, or quarter past
eight.
Q. How long after your breakfast?
A. Very soon after.
Q. Somewhere about nine o’clock?
A. Before nine I think.
Q. Before nine o’clock?
A. I think so.
Q. Did you have any talk with Mr. or Mrs. Borden that morning?
Page 406
A. I talked with Mrs. Borden in the office, and with Mr. Borden at his house Wednesday morning.
Q. The morning before the tragedy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went over there somewhere between 8 and 9 o’clock, after your breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know where Miss Lizzie was that morning?
A. I do not.
Q. Did they tell you where she was?
A. No.
Q. I ask you if they told you?
A. I do not think they did; I do not think I inquired after her.
Q. You do not remember anything about that?
A. No, I do not remember anything about that.
Q. The first time you went up with Dr. Dolan, was there then any examination made about the character
of the wounds, or the blood; or was that the second time?
A. I could not say whether it was the first or second time, I am sure.
Q. Did you form any opinion as to how long these people had been dead?
A. At that time I supposed they had been dead only a short time.
Q. What do you mean by “only a short time”?
A. I should say a half an hour.
Q. Did you form any opinion as to whether there was any essential difference in the time of their dying?
A. I did not at that time.
Q. Have you any opinion now?
A. I ought to have; I have heard opinions enough.
Q. Have you any opinion that you would care to express?
(Mr. Knowlton) Based upon a medical examination.
Q. That you care to express, based on what you have seen?
A. That would be merely supposition, or opinion.
Q. In consequence of what you saw there.
A. Well, yes.
Q. What is your opinion?
A. At what time do you wish to know? What time do you wish me to be at 12 o’clock or one o’clock?
Q. If you formed an opinion at any time when those parties had died, and an opinion as to the difference
in the time of dying, I should like to know when it was you formed it, and what your opinion is, if you
have it now, if it is something that sticks to you.
A. I have no means, myself, of judging whether there was any difference in the time of their death, or
not, no reliable opinion, no reliable information, no reliable way of possessing any that I know of myself,
or that was used that day there.
Page 407
Q. Or that was used that day?
A. Or that was used that day.
Q. Either by yourself, or anybody in your presence?
A. So far as I know.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) A very few questions. When was the last time you saw Mr. Borden?
A. Mr. Borden, I saw him, I do not remember whether I ever saw him after Wednesday morning or not.
I know my wife said he was out on the sidewalk; whether I looked out and saw him, I do not remember.
Q. You did not see him on Wednesday morning?
A. Yes, I saw him Wednesday morning.
Q. One of them called on you with reference to sickness they had had there?
A. Mrs. Borden called.
Q. When was that?
A. Wednesday morning.
Q. How early?
A. That was before breakfast, sometime between seven and eight o’clock perhaps.
Q. What was it she complained of?
A. She came to my door and rang the bell, and said she was frightened. She said she was afraid that she
had been poisoned. I asked her into my office, and she sat down. I questioned her on what she had been
eating, and what her sickness consisted of, in what way; and told her what to do. I told her I guessed it
would not be anything serious. At the time, during the time, she very nearly vomited, so much so, that I
was getting something ready for her. Whether she did in her handkerchief, or not, I could not say; but she
seemed to be sick all at once.
Q. Go on.
A. That is all of that. I told her what to do.
Q. Did she say the same things had happened to Mr. Borden during the night?
A. She said that Mr. Borden and herself were sick sometime between nine and twelve, that they were
both vomiting, and that Lizzie, Miss Lizzie, was sick later. That she either went into the room, or heard
them, and that about 12 she was vomiting-, had been vomiting Wednesday night.
Q. What time in the morning was this that she was in there?
A. In the office?
Q. Yes.
(Mr. Adams) All this is directed to Wednesday?
(Mr. Knowlton) Yes.
A. It was between seven and eight, before my breakfast sometime.
Q. Did her appearance seem to bear out what she said to you?
A. Yes, she acted sick.
Page 408
Q. You went over to the house after breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were not called?
A. I went of my own accord.
Q. From the symptoms she had described, you felt somewhat alarmed?
A. Yes Sir, so many of them; not because they sent for me.
Q. When you got there, who did you see?
A. I think that Bridget Sullivan let me in at the front door; I am not certain, I think so. I am very sure
that Miss Sullivan let me in.
Q. Who did you see?
A. I saw Mr. Borden.
Q. You talked with him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did he appear to be?
A. He was lying down then. As I went in, of course he sat up on the sofa.
Q. Did you see Lizzie then?
A. I did not. I saw someone going up stairs, I do not know whether it was Bridget or Lizzie or Mrs.
Borden, I did not see the face, I saw the form.
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all that day?
A. I think not.
Q. Out of doors, or in?
A. I do not remember as I did. I know my wife said she was going up the street, or going down street
towards night, that was Miss Lizzie.
Q. You did not see her during the day at all?
A. No Sir. I remember that, because my wife accounted for Mr. Borden being out, and Lizzie being out,
and I suppose they were all right.
Q. That is the last time that you know of that you saw Mr. or Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not call upon them afterwards?
A. No Sir.
Q. That call was voluntary?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You were not sent for to come over. Dr. Bowen, you say Mrs. Churchill was there when you came
in?
A. Yes Sir. In my first testimony I did not think she was, but I am satisfied now that she was.
Q. You saw Miss Lizzie when you came there?
A. The first time, yes.
Q. Where was she then?
A. I would not swear whether she was just as the edge of the kitchen or in the hall, or at the door I am
sure. I remember what I said to her.
Q. You do not remember where she was?
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A. I do not remember exactly where she was.
Q. Was she alone when you saw her?
A. I think Mrs. Churchill was with her, I am not certain.
Q. What was the first thing you said to her?
A. The first thing I said to her was “why Lizzie, what is the matter?” She said father had been killed or
stabbed. That is all I remember just now.
Q. Anything more did she say?
A. Not until I asked her questions.
Q. What was the next question you asked her?
A. I would not say what the order was they were in. I do not pretend to remember the order. I asked her
if she had seen anyone. I exclaimed, your father stabbed or killed. I asked her if she had seen anyone,
seen anyone in the room. She said she had not. She said she was afraid her father had — I do not
remember. She was afraid her father had had some trouble with the tenants; that was it, I think.
Q. Did not she say when you asked her if anybody had been there, that she had heard her father talking
loud lately?
A. Yes Sir. That did not refer to that day particularly, but some previous time, that she had heard her
father talking loud.
Q. She had heard her father talking some previous day?
A. Yes, she had heard loud talking. The talk I had first was “why Lizzie, what is the matter?” She said
her father had been killed or stabbed, I do not remember which. I asked her if she had seen anyone
anybody about the house. She said she had not. She said she was afraid that her father—- I might have
asked other questions. I remember the drift of the conversation was this, that she was afraid her father
had had some trouble with the tenants.
Q. Did she say then she had overheard somebody talking in the house?
A. Yes, but not that day. She said that that day.
Q. The very first conversation when you got there was like that?
A. Yes Sir, sometime between the time I went there, and the time I left, my first visit.
Q. That was almost the very first thing you said when you saw her?
A. Yes. I think that conversation was on the way into the dining room.
Q. It was at that very first interview she told you of the trouble with the tenants, and the talking loud?
A. I think that was when I first went in.
Q. That was the first words you said to her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You testified about this matter before the Inquest?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was your memory in a better condition then than it is now?
A. About the same. I do not think it is quite so good now.
Q. Did you say something of this kind, “I met Miss Lizzie in the hall. I says what is the matter Lizzie?
I spoke pretty quick. She
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said I think my father has been stabbed or hurt. I said has there been anybody here. She said not that she
knew of. She said she had overheard her father talking loud recently, and was afraid &c” That was so,
was it?
A. So far as I remember, as near as I can remember.
Q. How soon did you go into the sitting room where the dead man was?
A. It could not have been very long.
Q. Immediately almost?
A. A very few minutes.
Q. Was not it at once?
A. Yes Sir, at once.
Q. As soon as you could go in, when you found out where he was, you went in?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. No very few minutes about it?
A. I cannot tell how many minutes it was, I am sure.
Q. Do you remember?
A. No Sir.
Q. Is not it the fact that the spectacle of those two bodies dazed you for a while, so you had no
adequate remembrance of what was going on?
A. It took me sometime, I must say, to straighten out my actions during the first half hour; it took me
almost all the week to satisfy myself where I was.
Q. What you do remember about it now, is a conscious attempt to recollect what was entirely confused
in your mind at the time?
A. Yes Sir, and hearing witnesses, and getting at the truth, as near as I could.
Q. You have got a kind of a revived impression of what took place?
A. Yes Sir. (“Revived” is objected to, but waived.)
Q. If you had not heard anybody tell about it at all, you would have a pretty confused idea of what
went on? Will you tell me if you would remember anything about that matter if you had not heard these
other witnesses talk, any distinct recollection?
A. Certainly.
Q. Of what took place in the first half hour?
A. Somewhat; I would not say positive, I am sure.
Q. I suppose you went in there as soon as you could?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Will you tell me whether you noticed anything, except what you have said, wrong about that picture,
as you saw him first?
A. (Putting on his glasses.) Excepting the sliding down; that is all.
Q. In every other respect does the recollection of what you saw there, correspond with that picture
now?
A. So far as I know.
Q. Dr. Bowen, it was an awful sight, was it not?
Page 411
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was a ghastly sight, was it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It effected you to tears, did it not, Doctor?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you came out from that room into the other room, were there not tears streaming down your
cheeks?
A. I should not think so.
Q. Would you say they were not, if anybodyelse said so?
A. I should want more than one to say it, or two or three.
Q. The eye ball was hanging out itself?
A. It was cut in two, in halves.
Q. And lay on one cheek or the other?
A. No it was not lying on the cheek. It was cut in two, or cut in halves, and remained almost in the
natural position.
Q. You do not remember that you came out of that room with the tears streaming down your face?
A. No Sir.
Q. You think you did not?
A. I think I did not; I am sure I did not.
Q. What did you say the position of the arms was, I wanted to get that, Mrs. Borden’s?
A. Very near that way, crossed this way. (showing.)
Q. When did you first see the body of Mrs. Borden?
A. What time?
Q. Where were you when you first saw it?
A. I was in the door way.
Q. Standing in the door way?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who were with you?
A. Nobody as I know of. There might have been somebody behind me, I do not know.
Q. Who suggested your going up into the front room?
A. Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Did you have any talk with Lizzie about going up in the front room?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you hear Lizzie say she thought her mother had come back?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you hear her say she thought her mother had gone out then before you went away?
A. I am very sure she said that her mother had had a note that morning, and had gone out, or she thought
she had gone out. The question was raised where is Mrs. Borden; and as nobody could account for her, I
left and went down street on that evidence. I did not have time, I did not think it was necessary for me to
look.
Q. It was when you came back the second time, you found Mrs. Borden?
Page 412
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not go up stairs the first time you came in?
A. No Sir.
Q. Whether anybody had been up there before you had, you do not know?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who had been up there before you had, you do not know?
A. I know two had been up, but I do not know how many before me. I know that two had been up, I do
not know how many more had been up.
Q. Did you ask Lizzie at any time where she was when her father was killed?
A. Yes Sir. That was the first visit, I omitted that.
Q. What did she say?
A. She said she was out in the barn?
Q. What did she say she was doing out in the barn?
A. She said she was looking for irons, or something to that effect. I think that was the word that was
used, looking for irons.
RE-DIRECT
Q. (Mr. Adams) When Mrs. Borden came over to your house Wednesday morning, and had this talk
with you, she described her symptoms?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You asked her such medical questions as you thought were proper?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You said to her you did not think it was anything serious?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you think the matter was at that time?
A. At that time the weather was very warm, and it was not unusual for people to be unwell that way.
Q. It is a common complaint at that time of the year?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And has happened in your practice?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She said she and Mr. Borden were taken about nine o’clock, and Lizzie was taken sick about twelve
o’clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is between Tuesday night and Wednesday morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you say you thought she had that appearance, you did not mean I should understand she had
the appearance of being poisoned?
A. I had the impression by her actions that she was sick, felt sick.
Q. You did not prescribe for her on the theory that she had been poisoned?
A. No.
(Court) Doctor, let me understand. When you saw the body of Mrs. Borden, as I understand you, lying
flat on the face, were her arms folded across the face?
A. They were.
(Court) Under her?
Page 413
A. Yes Sir, they were.
(Court) She was laying on her arms?
A. Yes Sir.
RE-CROSS
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) How long a look did you take at the body at that time?
A. The first time up there, I do not suppose it was more than a minute or two.
Q. Were you taking particular notice of the position of things at that time?
A. No Sir I was not, except herself, except the body.
Q. You were not looking at it as a physician would look at an ordinary case?
A. No Sir. I was satisfying myself she was dead.
Q. You were then, if you will pardon me for saying so, quite excited?
A. I was.
Q. You were very excited?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You looked at that thing, however, so to satisfy yourself she was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The position was only incidental?
A. It was incidental, for I saw it several times after that, and took several parties up.
Q. Who was up there, and saw it in the same position that you saw it?
A. I cannot tell.
Q. Tell me anybody that saw it as you have described it.
A. I dont know.
Q. You have seen the witnesses that testified on the stand who saw it; can you tell me any of them who
saw it, so I could see whether their memory coincided with you.
A. I am not positive.
Q. When was the last time you saw the body in that position, with the arms under it?
A. After Dr. Dolan came we turned the body over on the back—
Q. When was the last time you saw her with her arms under her, instead of over her head?
A. Before she was moved by the direction of Medical Examiner Dolan.
Q. When Dr. Dolan first came, her arms were in the same position as when you first saw her?
A. So far as I know.
Q. So far as you remember?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So when Dr. Dolan first came, the position he found her in was the position you first found her in?
Page 414
A. So far as I remember.
Q. So far as you remember now?
A. So far as I remember. I did not intend to have her disturbed until the medical Examiner was there. I
intended to notify him as soon as I could.
Q. So far as you can remember the position in which Dr. Dolan found her, was the same position in
which you found her?
A. So far as I know.
Q. Did officer Allen get there before you?
A. I do not know the man. I should not know him, if he was here. As I was going out the first time, I
think I said I wished someone would notify the police.
Q. Do you know whether officer Allen came there before you did the second time?
A. I do not. I know this fact, that Mr. Sawyer said that some officer was there; and I satisfied myself
that the police were notified.
Q. Had got there before you got back the second time?
A. I satisfied myself that the police were notified of the event by the presence of a police officer, who
was not, I think in uniform.
Q. Before you went off the first time?
A. Before I left the first time.
Q. (Mr. Adams) Had you, before this time, assisted at a number of autopsies with Dr. Dwelley?
(Mr. Knowlton) I will admit he is an experienced Autopser.
(Mr. Adams) I want to know whether he had had any experience that would teach him to observe.
(Mr. Knowlton) I concede it; he is an expert.
Page 415
RUFUS B. HILLIARD
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your full name?
A. Rufus B. Hilliard.
Q. You are the City Marshal of Fall River?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When did this first come to your knowledge, Mr. Hilliard?
A. The first that I heard of it was by a telephone message about quarter past eleven on August 4th.
Q. Did you go up yourself immediately?
A. No Sir, I did not.
Q. Who did you send?
A. I sent Officer George W. Allen.
Q. How soon did you go yourself?
A. O, I did not get there to the house until somewhere between two and three in the afternoon.
Q. Do you know what other officers had been sent up meantime?
A. Well, I had sent quite a number that I could get hold of by the signal, and by sending men after them,
at their houses. The next officers sent were Doherty, then Mullaly, Medley, Gillan, Wilson, and quite a
number of others that I cannot mention now.
Q. Have you endeavored to give them in the order in which you sent them?
A. As near as I can remember it.
Q. You have given them in the order in which you think you sent them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you went up there at three o’clock, what did you do?
A. I went there with some men to search the barn, the yard, and also the yards in that vicinity.
Q. Do you know whether the barn had been searched before by any of the officers?
A. Nothing more than what I was told.
Q. Told by them?
A. Some of them, yes sir.
Q. Who were the officers from whom you derived the information?
A. Officer Medley was one, Mr. Fleet was another, and I think Mr. Riley, I wont be sure, but I think
Mr. Riley told me that he was there.
Q. By the way, where is Officer Medley; is he in town?
A. No Sir. I have sent Officer Medley to look after something that the Reverend Mr. Buck placed in my
hands.
Q. He is off on duty somewhere out of town?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) I had just as leave tell you where he is, but I do not care to tell it in Court.
Q. Following out some clue in connection with this murder, or don’t
Page 416
you care to answer that? I wont press it, if you do not care to answer it.
A. I cannot answer it, Mr. Jennings, in that way. Some supposed clue.
Q. Something in connection with the murder?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now what was done after you got up there?
A. When I arrived there, I went directly into the yard where several of the officers were. Some I sent
into the barn to search the barn, and I went to the back part of the yard where the pile of lumber lay.
Q. Wait just a minute, Marshal. Do you know of your own knowledge whether in that search of the
barn, the hay was all pitched over?
A. I do sir.
Q. A thorough examination was made, was there, of your own knowledge, of the whole barn, up stairs
and down?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The hay removed and everythingelse?
A. It was placed from where it was to the other end of the barn. It was all overhauled.
Q. Now you were going to tell me about the back yard; what was done there?
A. The first place I went, after sending the men in the barn, I went to that pile of lumber which lays at
what is termed, I presume, the Chagnon fence. It lays a little to the southward I think from the center of
the yard. I looked that over, some of it was handled over so we could look in and see if there was
anything there that we were looking for. We looked over the fence into the Chagnon property, and also
into the lot on the south, adjoining the Borden yard.
Q. That is what has been called the Crowe yard?
A. Well, I presume part of it; the other part is Dr. Kelley’s I presume. From there we went, or I went to
the well, or what was the well, but it has been filled up. From there I went to the rear end of the barn,
and looked into a vault that was there. From that I went into the barn, up where they were overhauling
the hay. I looked around there, and came down stairs, and helped in the search of the carriage house and
the carriages and barrels.
Q. That is in the lower part of the barn?
A. Yes Sir, on the west end.
(Mr. Knowlton) Not a separate building?
(Mr. Jennings) No.
A. It is that part of the barn where the carriages are, and it is on the west end of the barn, down stairs.
We searched in the stalls that are on the north of the barn, and also under the stairway that is there; in
fact, all that was down stairs.
Q. You made a thorough search of the whole premises?
A. Yes Sir. When we got through there, I came up and told the officers that—- Well, I sent them to
search the other yards around
Page 417
in that neighborhood. I then went into the house.
Q. Now can you recollect, Marshal, what other officers were in the house at that time that afternoon?
A. There was no other officer at the time that I went in; or, at least, I saw none. The Doctors were there.
Q. What doctors were there when you went in?
A. I saw Dr. Dolan.
Q. About what time was this you went into the house, do you think?
A. Somewhere in the neighborhood of quarter of four, perhaps four o’clock.
Q. Give us the names of the Doctors?
A. I saw Dr. Dolan there, Dr. Coughlin, Dr. Peckham, Dr. Dutra. I am pretty positive that Dr.
Tourtellot was there. I saw Mr. Winwood the undertaker. I am not positive whether Dr. Bowen was
there, or not he may have been there, or may not.
Q. Was Dr. Abbot there?
A. I did not see Dr. Abbot. He might have been there, for all I know.
Q. What were they doing at that time, Marshal?
A. I first went into the dining room where Mrs. Borden was.
Q. Where Mrs. Borden was?
A. Where Mrs. Borden lay, the body was in the dining room.
Q. They had brought it down?
A. Yes Sir, they had brought it from up stairs, down. It was in there; and the Doctors were talking
together; I do not know what they were saying, I am sure.
Q. I do not care for that, of course. I only wanted to know what you saw them do, if anything.
A. In fact I did not see them do anything at that time.
Q. They appeared to be in consultation at that time?
A. Yes, they were talking when we entered.
Q. What did you do after that, Marshal?
A. I spoke to Dr. Dolan. I looked at the safo, where it was, looked at some spots—
Q. Did you examine the sofa at all, look it over?
A. No Sir, no more than to look at it as it stood there. I did not examine it at all.
Q. Did you examine it enough to tell whether any part of it was cut?
A. No Sir.
Q. You cannot tell whether any part of it was cut, or not?
A. No Sir, I cannot.
Q. Can you tell us whether there were any blood spots on the head of it, or not?
A. At that time I did not look at it.
Q. I suppose you are speaking now of the sofa in the sitting room?
A. I am speaking of the sofa, yes sir, that sat on the north side of the sitting room, between what I
should term the dining room door on
Page 418
the north and the kitchen door on the east.
Q. Did you notice whether there were any blood spots, or not, on the parlor door?
A. There was.
Q. On the sitting room side?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you notice how many, or what the character of them was?
A. No Sir I did not. I saw there was some. There is a door goes from the sitting room into the parlor. On
the north of the door that enters the front hall, there on the north side of that door, I saw blood spots
there.
Q. Could you tell whether there were few or many?
A. That I could not tell.
Q. You simply know there were blood spots on there?
A. That is all I know about that.
Q. Was Mr. Borden’s body still on the sofa, or had that been removed?
A. His body lay, probably from his feet to the sofa was just room enough for me to pass by, going that
way.
Q. Then the body had been removed?
A. Yes; it was on some kind of an undertaker’s form there.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I then passed into the front entry way with Dr. Dolan. I went up stairs into the chamber, or the front
room over the parlor, where they said Mrs. Borden was found. I looked at the place where the blood was
on the carpet. I also looked at the clothing on the bed. I saw some spots of blood on the pillow sham. I
saw some one or two, perhaps more, on the—-
Q. Have you the shams and spread in your possession?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Will you get them?
A. Yes.
Q. Wont you bring up, if you have it, the marble piece that came off the bureau?
A. Yes. (They are produced from down stairs.)
Q. Are these the shams that were delivered to you as the ones that were on the bed?
A. Yes Sir, I should say they were.
Q. When did you receive them?
A. I got them at the house on Wednesday, the 10th of August.
Q. There seems to be blood only on one of them. Have you examined them to see if there is blood on
more than one of them?
A. I have not examined them since the day I saw them on the bed.
Q. What day did you see them on the bed?
A. The fourth of August.
Q. The time you have just spoken of as going up there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. This is the bed spread?
Page 419
A. Yes, I believe that is the one. That is the one I brought away from the house.
Q. The spread that was given to you at the house?
A. Yes, the spread that was given to me at the house.
Q. Can you tell me how they lay, whether this sham with the blood on it, lay next to the bureau, or
furthest away from it?
A. No sir, it lay next to the bureau, the bureau or dressing case, whatever it is.
Q. How was the bloody part of the spread, if you recollect, relative to that bloody sham?
A. That was just below it, supposing the pillow to be here.
Q. To the west of it?
A. Yes Sir a little to the west of it, on the north side of the bed.
Q. Without going through your whole movements in detail, Mr. Hilliard, I want to know whether you
made any search of the house that afternoon; and if so, give me a description of the search.
A. I made no search of the house myself. At the time that I sent some men to search the yards, I also
sent some to search the cellar, to go through it thoroughly. I had been informed that it had been searched.
Q. Before this, before you got there?
A. Yes Sir, but I sent men down there to give it a thorough searching.
Q. Was that after you came in the house, or before?
A. I sent them just before I went into the house, and probably went in about the same time myself, into
the house.
Q. Do you know whether they did search the cellar?
A. I did not go down there. All I know is what was reported to me.
Q. What further do you know about the search, if anything, that afternoon?
A. Nothing whatever, sir.
Q. Do you recollect who the officers were that you directed to make that search in the cellar?
A. I think Assistant Marshal Fleet and Mr. Harrington, and I think Mr. Riley was there, and I think Mr.
Medley was there, perhaps there may have been one or two others that I do not recollect.
Q. Now I wont ask you what the report was; but I ask you whether a report was made of the search
that afternoon?
A. Yes Sir, when they came up from the cellar I met Mr. Fleet outside.
Q. Do you know whether anything was found that afternoon as the result of these searches?
(Mr. Knowlton) He can know that only by hearsay.
Q. Was anything delivered to you as found that afternoon, as the result of those searches?
A. No Sir, not that day.
Page 420
(Mr. Knowlton) I do not object to any report that was made to him, or anything that was found, any
object.
Q. Is this the direction that this marble lay, north and south?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You found one blood spot on the top of that?
A. That is all that I saw.
Q. And two blood spots on the front edge?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know, Mr. Hilliard, or were any orders given by you to search the upper part of that house
that afternoon?
A. No Sir, none whatever.
Q. Do you know, from the reports of your officers, whether any search had been made of the upper
part of the house that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know from the reports, or were there such reports made?
A. I know from the reports from my officers.
Q. That there were such reports made?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now what was done the next day in the way of search? The next day was Friday?
A. Yes Sir. I do not know that there was any search made on a Friday; not that I know of.
Q. Did you receive anything on Friday as the result of any previous search?
A. Friday morning I did.
Q. What did you receive?
A. I received two hatchets and two axes.
Q. Were the two hatchets which you received the two hatchets which were in Court here yesterday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. One with the claw hammar head, and the other the small hatchet which you gave to Mr. Wood?
A. Yes Sir, I gave it to Mr. Knowlton, and he ordered it given to Mr. Wood.
Q. Did you made any examination of those hatchets at the time you received them?
A. Not immediately. I looked at them during the forenoon, after Court. I was in Court that morning, if I
remember right.
Q. I think Dr. Dolan testified that he did not make a close examination of these hatchets at the house,
but he did make an examination of the glass afterwards in your office; can you recollect when that time
was?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was it?
A. It was on Sunday, the seventh.
Q. Sunday morning?
A. That is the time I remember of his making a thorough investigation of these axes and that hatchet.
Page 421
Q. Is that the time when he examined them through a glass? He spoke of using a glass to look at them?
A. No Sir, he looked at them on the 5th after they were in my office. What I said on Sunday, was that
he took a powerful glass which I brought, and looked at them very thoroughly, handles and heads, and all
around.
Q. Do you know when the hair was first discovered on the hatchet?
A. I think I went up there; but I think the officer who brought it down from the house to my office, was
the man who found the hair, or supposed hair, whatever it was, just under the handle, and next to the
head of the hatchet.
Q. The claw hammar head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who was that officer?
A. Mr. Edson. I do not know; I do not say positive, but I think he was the one that found that.
Q. I was going to ask you, Marshal, whether it was not Mayor Coughlan who first called attention to
that, Saturday night?
A. No Sir, I do not think it was, that is, to that hair next to the head of the hatchet; I do not think it was.
Q. Was there anything that he first called attention to Saturday night?
A. Yes sir. On one of the axes, he called my attention to what looked like blood, not only on the ax
itself, but the handle.
(Mr. Knowlton) Ax or hatchet?
A. Ax.
Q. I simply wanted to place Dr. Coughlan’s examination. Now go back to the search Marshal. When was
the next search that you made after Thursday?
A. The next search that I made—
Q. Or that you caused to be made; made by you, or under your directions.
A. Do you mean a partial or thorough search?
Q. Partial. I want to cover all the searches that were made.
A. Saturday, I should say somewhere about half past 12. That search was made from something that
came to my knowledge, in fact, was handed to me; and I went there after the funeral procession left the
house, and made a partial search of three rooms.
Q. This was about half past 12?
A. Somewhere in that vicinity; it was soon after the procession started.
Q. Now what three rooms did you search Saturday afternoon?
A. I looked in what I was told was Miss Lizzie’s room, the room to the northward. We went from that
room, and looked into the spare or front bed room, up stairs.
(Examination suspended to allow Dr. Learned to testify.)
Page 422
(Examination of Marshal Hilliard resumed)
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Then if I understand you correctly, you examined the room that is called Miss
Emma’s room, and Miss Lizzie’s room, and the guest room?
A. I examined partially the three rooms that I have spoken of. I do not know about Miss Emma’s room;
I do not know where that is.
Q. You know where Miss Lizzie’s room is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I understood you to say you examined the room that opened out of that?
A. Yes Sir, opened out of that to the north.
Q. This being Miss Lizzie’s room on the south of the house, you examined that room, with the door
opening directly out of it to the north?
A. Partially, the whole three.
Q. What do you mean by partially?
A. I did not go through the bureau drawers, and such as that, but looked at the beds, looked at this bed
that stood here, and that one there.
Q. What do you mean by looking at, tore them to pieces?
A. Yes sir, lifted the bed, and took the clothes off.
Q. Took everything off of it, so you could see if anything was concealed in any part of the bed or any
part of the bedding?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not examine the bureau drawers in any part of the room?
A. No Sir. There was this lounge here, a sofa. I looked back of it.
Q. You looked back of the sofa in Lizzie’s room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you went into the spare room, or guest room, what did you do there, in the north west corner?
A. Nothing at all, just merely looked at it.
Q. That was when?
A. Saturday noon, somewhere between 12 and one o’clock, probably half past 12. I left the office at
noon.
Q. Now was there any other search made that day, Marshal, Saturday?
A. Yes Sir, Saturday afternoon at three o’clock I went to the house with other officers, Dr. Dolan—-
Q. Give the names please.
A. Assistant Marshal Fleet, and Capt. Desmond, Mr. Seaver, Dr. Dolan, Mr. Jennings and myself.
Q. Now tell us Marshal what was done in the way of searching that house that afternoon.
(Court) Was that the afternoon of the 6th?
(Mr. Jennings) Yes, Saturday afternoon, began at three o’clock.
A. We commenced at the top of the house in what I should term the
Page 423
attic rooms. We searched that whole landing clear through. I first went into the rooms on the east and
north side of the house—
Q. I am not particular about your giving it in detail. Give us a general answer as to whether you searched
everything, every box, every drawer, every trunk, every barrel, every bed, every bundle?
A. So far as I know, it was done. Of course, while I was searching perhaps in one room, some other
officer was searching in another; but we went all through it.
Q. Those were the instructions, and that was the way you understood it?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) I will agree the search was made as thorough as the officers knew how to make it.
(Mr. Jennings) Into everything, everything from the attic down, to the cellar floor?
(Mr. Knowlton) Yes. That was the Saturday afternoon.
Q. That was not so, clear down to the cellar, because we left it— I was going to ask you about the roof;
whether Marshal Fleet did not go up there, and examine under the roof?
A. I should judge from the looks of him when he came out, that he had.
Q. You went through Miss Lizzie’s room in the same way that you have stated in answer to this general
question, as is conceded?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There is no city water in the house, was there? There is none up stairs, so far as you know?
A. Yes Sir, I think there is a tank in what I should term a clothes press off of Bridget Sullivan’s room.
Bridget’s room was on the east and south side of the house, the attic; and off of that was what I term a
clothes press or room; and at the top of that, there was a wooden tank.
Q. Perhaps my question was not quite accurate enough. What I mean was whether in the second story
of the house, in these bed rooms, there was any running water, any faucets, or anything of that kind
connecting with the City water, or whether they simply used pitchers and bowls to wash with?
A. I did not notice any running water there, Mr. Jennings.
Q. I want to ask you more particularly with regard to the second floor. Whether you personally
examined the large clothes press out of the front hall up stairs?
A. I did not.
Q. Do you know who did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who was it?
A. Officer Seaver.
Q. Anybodyelse, was not there someone else in there with him?
Page 424
A. I do not know but that Mr. Desmond or Mr. Fleet, I do not know which, because I was engaged in
what is termed Miss Lizzie’s room when that was going on. I think you was there part of the time.
Q. In Miss Lizzie’s room with you?
A. Yes, and I think you went out to the front of the house.
Q. Did you go into the closet at all yourself?
A. No Sir I did not.
Q. You understand, of course, we are talking about the Saturday afternoon search all this time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now you made a little exception as to the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was the exception that you cared to make with regard to the search down there?
A. Saturday afternoon it was only partial as to the cellar.
Q. Now give us some sort of a description s to what kind of a search it was, whether it did not cover
everything, except pulling over the wood, and making an opening into the chimney, and things of that
kind?
A. Well, we looked around the cellar; it was not what I should term a thorough search. There were
barrels piled up in one of the cellars that was off of what I call the laundry or wash room. Then west of
that room, of the laundry, was another cellar where there was a great quantity of wood. Then west of
that again, there was another cellar or room and also a space where the furnace set, the boiler, or
whatever it was, and also the foundation, or top of the foundation. We looked Saturday afternoon there
to see if there was any place where a brick or stone could be removed, or had been removed, but there
was nothing of that kind.
Q. In connection with this examination of the chimney, did or did you not remove a brick from the lower
portion there, finally?
A. It was removed by a mason that went by my directions on the following Monday.
Q. What were you looking for there?
A. Looking to see if there was in what is termed the bottom part of the chimney, whether there was any
space there, or not, where anything could have been thrown down the chimney.
Q. A weapon do you mean?
A. Yes, or any other thing.
Q. Take this search of Saturday, as to whether you received any assistance or information that you
requested from the girls in the house there, Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma I mean?
A. Yes Sir. Miss Emma came into the kitchen while we were there, in fact all that were there on the
search, even to yourself I think, stood on the kitchen floor, when Miss Emma, I cant say her exact
words, but as near as I can, she told us that she wanted us to make as thorough
Page 425
an examination as possible of every part of the house, everything in the house; and if there was any place
or box or anythingelse that we did not understand, could not open, why the keys would be given to us. I
think she handed you, or someone of the party, the keys of the upper floor.
Q. That was before we started?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Afterwards when it was found there were one or two things which apparently could not be opened,
they furnished whatever information or means were necessary?
A. There was one trunk in the room at the west and south side of the house that bothered all of us a
little, about the top part of it. I noticed it was not a great while after we had been at work on it before I
think Miss Emma and Miss Lizzie both came in.
Q. Dont you remember the steamer trunk we could not get in to, Miss Emma showed us where the key
was hanging?
A. Yes Sir, that is the one I am speaking of.
Q. Was not that Lizzie that showed us where the key was tied on to that low trunk there?
A. That I could not say; it was one or the other; which one I wont say.
Q. They both came up there to explain the thing to us, so we could get into it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So far as you know, in any and all of these searches, did there appear to be any attempt on their part
to obstruct you, or hinder you in any way, in making a full examination of the house?
A. Not that I am aware of, sir.
Q. Now Monday, what did you do as to the search?
A. I was not there Monday myself. I sent Capt. Desmond with other officers to complete the search in
the cellar, and also ordered them to re-search the barn.
Q. So far as you know from the report of your officers, what was the character of that search in the
cellar on Monday?
A. So far as I know—-
Q. As to the thoroughness of it?
A. It was thoroughly searched clear through.
Q. That was the cellar I understand it, that was searched on Monday?
A. The cellar and the barn.
Q. And everything, gone over with, the same as you had gone over the upper part of the house on the
Saturday before?
A. Yes Sir, so far as I know of.
Q. I am asking you, from the report that you received of the officers instructed by you to make it.
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that still made for the purpose of finding a weapon?
Page 426
A. Yes Sir, or anything that might have blood on it.
Q. On the day of the search, Saturday, what was delivered to you?
A. There was a dress.
Q. What kind of a dress?
A. A dress skirt. Well, it was a blue figure in it. I could not possibly describe the pattern of it.
Q. Was it a blue ground and white figure, or white ground with a blue figure?
A. I should say from my recollection of it, it was a blue ground with a white figure, or partially white
figure in it.
Q. Sort of a navy blue color?
A. Similar to it, yes sir.
Q. That was the skirt?
A. That was the dress skirt.
Q. Was there a dress waist?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it a dress waist, or a sort of a loose blouse?
A. As near as I can remember it was a dress waist, with perhaps part of it here in front loose.
Q. Was it like the skirt? Do you recollect whether it was the same material as the skirt?
A. I think it was, Mr. Jennings, similar to it. It might possibly have been, instead of whatever figure was
on the dress, it might possibly have been round spots.
Q. Was not one of them a sort of cotton material, and the other a sort of silk?
A. That I could not tell.
Q. You could not remember now?
A. No Sir.
Q. You examined it pretty carefully?
A. Yes Sir. I was examining it with you.
Q. Both of us looked at it pretty carefully?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There was also a white under skirt there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the one that the spot of blood was found on?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. About the size of a pin?
A. Yes Sir, a pin head.
Q. Was anything else given to you that day, Marshal?
A. Do you mean the afternoon, at the time they were searching?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes Sir, there was I think a lounge cover there that was taken from the dining room.
Q. Was that the one Prof. Wood referred to?
A. I presume so; they were all turned over to Dr. Dolan.
Page 427
Q. You did not take the shams and spread that afternoon?
A. No Sir.
Q. When did you take the shoes and stockings?
A. That was on Wednesday, the 10th.
Q. After the Inquest began?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that after Miss Lizzie testified, or was testifying?
A. It was when I accompanied her back to the house, Wednesday noon.
Q. From the Inquest?
A. Yes Sir. I remained in the parlor, and a pair of ties or shoes, and a pair of black stockings were handed
to me.
Q. You asked her for them?
A. Yes Sir, as she was going up the stairs I asked her if she would be kind enough to hand me the articles
she spoke in the Inquest about. She said she would give them to me.
Q. She made no objection?
A. None whatever.
Q. She went immediately and got them and brought them to you?
A. Yes Sir. I would not say whether she brought them down herself. They were brought down
immediately after she went up stairs.
Q. When did you get the shams and the spread?
A. The same day and the same time, Wednesday the 10th. Mrs. Holmes I think handed those to me.
Q. When did you bring away this marble?
A. The same day.
Q. What did you do with the shoes and stockings?
A. I delivered those to Dr. Dolan that day or the next morning, I wont be sure which.
Q. Has the marble been in your possession ever since?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In your custody?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And the shams and the spread?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They are just as you found them when you took them away?
A. Yes Sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Mr. Hilliard, did you look in the trunks in the attic?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. All of them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you examine their contents?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see anything up there of an unmade dress pattern in the attic?
Page 428
A. Well, there was some of the trunks that I looked into, but I did not look into all of them. I did not, to
my recollection, see any dress pattern in any of the trunks that I saw.
Q. What other officer looked in the trunks in the attic besides you?
A. I think Mr. Seaver, I am not sure but what Mr. Fleet did. I think Mr. Desmond.
Q. Have you been to inquire for a dress pattern there since?
A. I have not, but under my orders other officers have.
Q. Who did go?
A. Mr. Fleet.
Q. Have you been able to get the dress pattern, or any dress pattern?
A. No Sir.
Q. When was it you sent for it?
A. I think the first officer that went there was Mr. Medley. After that, I think, I am pretty positive I
sent the Assistant Marshal. Week before last I think was the first time the officer went there. I think Mr.
Fleet was there a week ago last Saturday night. I think he was there some day the first part of the week,
of last week.
Q. And you have not got it?
A. No Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) I now call for it, Brother Jennings, and ask you to bring it, not now, but this afternoon.
Page 429
WILLIAM T. LEARNED
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your full name?
A. William T. Learned.
Q. You are a practicing physician here?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you at the Borden house on the day of the tragedy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At what time?
A. About quarter past three.
Q. Did you see Mrs. Borden in the front upper room there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where she was lying between the bureau and the bed?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now I want to ask you if you recollect what was the position of her arms, relative to her head or
body at that time.
A. The arms were under the body. She was lying prone, with the arms under.
Q. Can you show us by your own arms?
A. I could not see the fore arms, but supposed they were this way. (Shows.) Upper arms were by the
side of the body.
Q. Did the position of the lower part of the body indicate that the arms were as you now indicate?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were they up over her head anyway, in this position?
A. No Sir.
Q. Who were present at that time?
A. Several; I think at least a dozen.
Q. Was Dr. Bowen there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was Dr. Dolan there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And other doctors?
A. Yes Sir; but I do not know that they were in the upper room at the time I was, not all the time.
Q. But they were there in the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that just before she was taken down stairs to perform the autopsy?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you remain during the autopsy? Ans. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you understand that it was an autopsy?
(Objected to. Court; The doctor may tell what he witnessed, and what he did.)
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) That was after the photographs were taken probably, then?
Ans. Yes Sir.
Page 430
GEORGE F. SEAVER
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. George F. Seaver.
Q. What is your business, Mr. Seaver?
A. I am an officer, a member of the Massachusetts District Police.
Q. Have you taken any part in the investigation of this murder of Mr. Borden?
A. Yes Sir, some part.
Q. When is the first time that you knew of the murder?
A. I was informed of the fact by telegraph about 3.40 on the day of the murder.
Q. When, if at all, did you first go to the house?
A. Between 5 and half past 5 that afternoon.
Q. What did you do there then?
A. I went there with Marshal Hilliard. I went through the different rooms.
Q. Tell us what you did there.
A. I made several inquiries, quite a number.
Q. Of whom?
A. Various ones that I saw there, officers.
Q. Did you make any inquiries of Lizzie?
A. I did not.
Q. Have you at any time had any talk with her?
A. I have not. I think I did speak to her one day; but I do not recollect what I said; no general
conversation with them.
Q. What else did you do besides go through the house; what part of the house did you go through?
A. The lower part only at that time.
Q. Was the sofa still there in its place?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was Mr. Borden’s body at that time?
A. It laid up on a table or something in the sitting room.
Q. Did you see any blood on the doors there in the sitting room?
A. I did.
Q. Which doors did you see the blood on?
A. I saw the blood on the east door, the kitchen door, going out of the sitting room. I saw spots of blood
on the parlor door, the west door.
Q. Did you notice how many spots of blood there were on the kitchen door?
A. I did not count them.
Q. Did you notice how many there were on the parlor door?
A. Quite a number of them; I did not count them.
Q. Should you say few or many?
A. I should say at least a dozen. I would not say how many.
Q. And there might have been more?
Page 431
A. There might have been more.
Q. On the sitting room side of the parlor door, right west of the head of the lounge?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go up stairs at all that time?
A. I went into the front hall; but I think I did not go up stairs at that time. I would not be positive I did
not go up to the top of the stairs. I have been up there several times. I would not be positive but I think I
did not go up stairs at that time.
Q. When did you next go there? Is that all you did, just go through those rooms?
A. No Sir, I went out around the yard, and barn.
Q. What did you do out there?
A. I looked around generally, and looked over the fence.
Q. You saw no signs of anything out there, did you, remarkable?
A. No Sir.
Q. Then what did you do after you had done that, I mean about the premises there?
A. I think that was all I done at the premises at that time.
Q. When did you next go up? By the way, did you see the axes at that time?
A. I did not.
Q. When did you next go up there?
A. I was up there the next morning.
Q. What time?
A. Between eight and nine o’clock I should say it was.
Q. What did you do that morning, anything in the way of search?
A. Not in the morning. About half past 12—
Q. This is on Friday.
A. Nothing in the way of search at all that day—- Yes Sir, I was out around the barn, and searched
around the barn; and I was down in the cellar and searched around the cellar that day.
Q. And saw nothing there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see the axes or hatchets that morning?
A. I did not see that there. The first I saw of the axes was in the police station.
Q. Did you make any further search in the house that day, Friday?
A. No Sir, I did not.
Q. What did you do about the premises the next day?
A. Saturday?
Q. Yes. You said you had no conversation with Lizzie about the matter at any time?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have any talks with Bridget?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. More than one?
A. I think I spoke to her at two or three different times.
Page 432
Q. Do you remember whether you talked with her the day of the murder?
A. I think I did.
Q. Did you talk with her the following day?
A. I think I did.
Q. Now we come to Saturday; what did you do Saturday about the premises there?
A. I was up there several times Saturday. About searching, do you speak of?
Q. Yes.
A. I was up there Saturday with Marshal Hilliard about half past 12 I think, or very soon after the
procession started.
Q. That is the first time you went into the house, at that time, half past 12, that day?
A. O, no sir, I had been in the lower part of the house down stairs.
Q. No searching?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you have any talk with Bridget about the murder Saturday?
A. Yes Sir, I think I spoke to her about it.
Q. Did you make memorandums of those conversations?
A. I think I might, yes sir; I think I did, yes sir.
Q. And have them now?
A. I have not them with me.
Q. No, I meant you have the memorandums, you preserved them?
A. Yes.
Q. Now at half past 12 you say you made a search; what did you do then?
A. I was up in three rooms or four.
Q. Anybody with you?
A. Marshal Hilliard.
Q. Was Marshal Hilliard with you at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Tell us what you did.
A. We made a partial search of the middle room, called Miss Lizzie’s room, and the room out of that,
north of that.
Q. That we have called Miss Emma’s room?
A. Yes, also the front or spare room, the west room.
Q. Now you say you made a partial search; what do you mean by that?
A. We looked at the beds.
Q. That is, you took off the bedding?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Made an examination?
A. Of the beds generally.
Q. Did you find anything there?
A. We did not.
Q. You mean you have made an examination of the beds in all three rooms?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 433
Q. Anythingelse beside that?
A. We did not go into any other part of the house besides. We generally looked around the premises, did
not disturb any bureau drawers or anything at that time.
Q. Do you remember what the washing arrangement is in Lizzie’s room?
A. I have an indistinct recollection there was a bowl there.
Q. A little alcove in the south corner and a bowl?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Any running water?
A. I did not see any.
Q. Do you remember in the spare room whether there was a pitcher and bowl to wash, there on the
usual wash stand?
A. Yes. No running water there.
Q. Did you look about that wash bowl at all at that time, make any examination?
A. I do not think I did, no sir.
Q. This was about half past 12 at noon?
A. I should say it was.
Q. Then did you make another search that day?
A. Yes Sir, this search that Marshal Hilliard has referred to.
Q. At that time when you were there?
A. When we went from attic to cellar.
Q. At that examination everything was examined, was it not?
A. So far as I went, I was very thorough; and I think the rest were.
Q. So far as you saw, they went through everything?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Every bundle and box?
A. Yes, and trunks and boxes?
Q. Every hole that anything could be put into?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you personally examine the clothes press that afternoon?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At the top of the front stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Cant you give us a little description of it; we have not had a very good description of it. Can you tell
about how big it was?
A. I did not measure; I should think certainly four feet wide.
Q. About how long?
A. I should think it must be from seven to eight feet long.
Q. It is the whole width of the front hall?
A. The length of that is just the same as the width of the front hall.
Q. The door opens right into it from the upper front hall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is there a window directly opposite the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A large full sized window?
Page 434
A. Yes sir, the same size window as those in the other rooms.
Q. The same as in the guest chamber?
A. Just the same.
Q. When you went there, were there any clothes hung in front of the window?
A. I think not, directly in front of the window. The window blind was closed very carefully by oil cloth,
or something pinned in the sides and on the top as a guard so the light came in very little when we came
in there. We took the clothes down, and opened one half of the shutter so we could see inside.
Q. Perfectly light was it in there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So you could see as well there as in any room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do in there?
A. We examined all the boxes, and I think there was one trunk there?
Q. Did you take everything out of those, and look at them?
A. I cannot say that we took everything.
Q. Looked them over?
A. It was satisfactory to us that we could not find anything we were looking for.
Q. Did you examine all the dresses in there?
A. We examined about all the dresses. I think there was one or two silk dresses I did not particularly
look at. I looked at the common dresses, the woolen dresses there. There were two dresses I did not
examine; they were silk dresses. I did not think it was necessary to examine those.
Q. Every other dress you examined, did you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Examined carefully with a view to determine whether there was blood on them or not?
A. Yes Sir, that is what we were looking for.
Q. You found none?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was not there somebodyelse in there with you?
A. Mr. Fleet.
Q. Did you take these dresses out to the window to look at them at all?
A. I think we did in two or three instances.
Q. Should you say, Mr. Seaver, from the examination you made of those dresses, if there had been any
with very much blood on it, you would have noticed it?
(Objected to.)
(Mr. Jennings) I am basing that on the character of the examination that he made.
(Mr. Knowlton) Mere inference.
(Question excluded by the Court.)
Page 435
Q. You saw no blood?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you take any part in the search on Monday?
A. No Sir.
Q. Have you made any search since?
A. I have been up through the barn some since; and I have been in the cellar once since.
Q. What were you looking for then?
A. Still looking to see what I could find.
Q. Anything, weapon or clothes, or anythingelse?
A. Yes. I have been through the cellar quite thoroughly myself, and through the barn, with the exception
of the hay, that had been thrown over as quoted, and I have not touched that.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Is there any running water in the house anywhere?
A. I do not recollect that I saw any.
Q. What is there in the sink, a faucet?
A. Possibly there is some in the sink; I am not positive about that. In the other rooms of the house I did
not see any.
Q. The City water is let into the house, is it not?
A. I think it is.
Q. There is a water closet down stairs, is not there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That must be run by City water?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. There is a faucet in the sink?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. No hot water in the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. No bath tub in the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. Nothing except the water closet down stairs, and the faucet in the sink?
A. That is all I saw.
Q. No other water in the house?
A. No Sir.
Q. When was the first time you made any thorough search at all?
A. Friday, excepting what little I looked around that afternoon.
Q. Friday where were you searching?
A. Friday morning down cellar and in the barn.
Q. What were you looking for then?
A. To see what I could find.
Q. Anything particular, for any bloody clothing, or anything of that kind?
A. That is what I was looking for. I looked in all portions of the cellar.
Page 436
Q. You did not examine the clothing then at all anywhere?
A. No Sir. The first time.
Q. In your search of Saturday did you look in the attic?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went in the attic?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you look in the trunks in the attic?
A. Not all of them.
Q. Who looked in those you did not look in?
A. Marshal Hilliard.
Q. You looked in all Marshal Hilliard did not?
A. I think Marshal Hilliard looked in one or two trunks that I did not see in.
Q. In all but one or two, you looked?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see anything of a dress pattern not made up, there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see the trunks Mr. Fleet looked into, did you look into the contents of them?
A. I did not.
Q. You did not find any dress pattern at all up there in the garret?
A. Not up there.
Q. How many trunks were there up there?
A. I could not tell you, I think three or four.
Q. In the attic?
A. Yes, that is, trunks and large boxes.
RE-DIRECT
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Do you know who opened that trunk that had the numerous springs on it?
A. Marshal Hilliard.
Q. Sure about that?
A. Do you mean that first opened it?
Q. Yes.
A. He went to that trunk first; I was there and attempted to assist him.
Q. Who finally got it open?
A. Capt. Desmond I think. I think Marshal Hilliard was the first one who went to it. I think your
attention was called to it, and mind, and I do not know but two or three others.
Q. Did you look into that trunk to see if there was anything in it?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know whether there was any dress pattern there or not?
A. No, Marshal Hilliard was there; I suppose he was taking care of that; and I went into the other room.
Page 437
JOHN DONNELLY
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. John Donnelly.
Q. You are a hack driver?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go up to Mr. Borden’s house on the morning of the murder?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. About what time do you think you got up there?
A. I could not just give you the time. I think somewhere around 12 o’clock.
Q. Should you think it was before or after?
A. I could not say positive.
Q. What is your best recollection?
A. I should not want to make it much after 12.
Q. Did you go into the barn at all?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I might have been up there ten or fifteen minutes before we went in there.
Q. Do you know whether officer Medley was there at that time, or not?
A. I did not see officer Medley there nowhere.
Q. Did you notice anything about the hay?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was the hay?
A. I call it on the north side of the barn.
Q. What did you see in the hay, anything about the hay that indicated anything, except the usual
condition of hay piled up there?
A. It looked so to me as though there had been somebody laying on it; I do not know whether there had
or not.
Q. Where was that?
A. On the pile this way.
Q. When you say “this way”, what do you mean by that, north or south?
A. I should call it north west.
Q. Near the north west part?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Towards the window?
A. Yes Sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What was it that looked as though somebody had been lying there?
A. This hay.
Q. What was it about it?
A. It looked as though there was a form of a body on there, that had been sleeping on there, or
something.
Q. Do you mean as though somebody had been pressing, or making the impression of their form on the
hay?
Page 438
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long was the form?
A. I could not tell you; I did not measure it.
Q. How wide was the form?
A. I should think about so wide.
Q. Was it the form of a dog or a man?
A. That I could not say.
Q. How deep was the impression?
A. About five or six inches, I should say.
Q. That is the whole width of the space was an impression of five or six inches. Rounding or square?
A. Kind of rounding.
Q. Give the width in inches, if you can.
A. I could not.
Q. You gave the depth of it in inches; cant you give the width of it?
A. About a foot perhaps.
Q. Straight?
A. No Sir. It looked kind of rounding.
Q. Length ways straight?
A. It looked like a kind of a round hole right in the hay.
Q. How long was the hole?
A. I cannot give any idea.
Q. Give the best idea you have.
A. Five or six inches I should say.
Q. Five or six inches long?
A. A foot long, I said.
Q. About a foot wide?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And six inches deep?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was the impression that you saw?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That made you think a man had been lying there?
A. I could not say what it was.
Q. When did you first hear of this thing?
A. I do not recollect the time now; I did not take the time.
Q. Where were you when you heard of it?
A. I had just drove into the stable.
Q. Where was the stable?
A. On Fourth street. I board my horses at Archie Holt’s stable on Fourth street.
Q. I do not know where that is; will you tell me?
A. It is right up here off of Pleasant street.
Q. How far?
A. Do you know where the horse cars to around to go up—
Q. I do not know anything about it. Tell me how far up Pleasant street it is.
Page 439
A. It might be 200 yards.
Q. Have you any idea what time it was when you heard of the murder?
A. No Sir, I have not.
Q. Give me the best judgment you have.
A. I think somewhere about half past eleven.
Q. I went up there to put up my horses to feed them.
A. What did you do then?
A. I heard of the murder and went up and stood in the yard there talking to Mr. Miller. He said to me—
Q. No, I want to know what you did.
A. I went into the barn.
Q. Did you go straight up as soon as you heard of it?
A. No, about 15 minutes after I got in.
Q. You think you got in about noon?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who was the first person you saw when you got there?
A. Charlie Sawyer was on the door of the house.
Q. Who else?
A. Charlie Cook.
Q. Who else?
A. A man named Clarkson.
Q. Anybodyelse?
A. Yes. Then I saw—
Q. When you first got there, I mean.
A. Mr. Miller, and quite a number of others, I cant recollect now.
Q. Try and recollect, if you can.
A. I have.
Q. You cant think of anybodyelse that you saw there at that time?
A. No Sir.
Q. How many people do you think you saw there when you got there?
A. There might have been 25 or 30.
Q. Did you see any officers?
A. Yes Sir, two or three officers, but they were all in the house.
Q. Who were they?
A. Doherty was one. They was all in the house, all I saw.
Q. I asked you who they were.
A. I did not see only Mr. Doherty; I knew him.
Q. Did you see any other officers?
A. Not for Sometime.
Q. When you first got up there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did any officers come after you got there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who?
A. I do not recollect their names now.
Page 440
Q. How many did you see come, after you got there?
A. I think five or six.
Q. Can you tell me the names of any of them?
A. I think one’s name was Gillian. I think Mr. Chase was one, I am not sure.
Q. Did you see anybodyelse come that you know the names of?
A. No Sir.
Q. No other names of officers you saw come after you got there?
A. No Sir. I saw quite a lot of them there, but I do not recollect their names now.
Q. All you saw come were Gillian and Chase?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. All you saw there was Doherty, when you got there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I think you told me there was two or three there?
A. They were in the house. I did not see them to know who they were.
Q. Did you see them to know that they were officers?
A. I saw them going through the hall way when I came by the door.
Q. When you first got there?
A. Nobody but Doherty that I knew.
Q. Were there other officers there that you did not know?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How do you know they were officers?
A. Because they had uniforms on.
Q. How many people did you see there with uniforms on?
A. I might have seen seven or eight there.
Q. How many did you see?
A. That I cannot give you, sir, straight.
Q. I mean when you first got there.
A. When I first go there I saw only this man Doherty.
Q. When you first got there, I have to repeat the question I am afraid, how many people in uniform, did
you see on those premises, inside or outside of the house?
A. I think between seven and eight there.
Q. That is when you first got there?
A. No Sir, afterwards.
Q. I shall repeat it again now. I am going to ask you again, when you first got there, how many people in
uniform did you see inside or outside of the house, or anywhere about the premises?
A. I did not see none until after I had been in the barn.
Q. So before you went in the barn you saw no person in uniform in or about the premises anywhere?
A. No Sir. After I come out of the barn, I went around the yard—
Q. I did not ask you anything about that, but you may say it.
A. After I came out of the barn the officers were there, and they ordered us out into the street.
Page 441
Q. Was that the first you saw of the officers?
A. What was in the house.
Q. Who were the officers that ordered you into the street?
A. Gillian was one of them.
Q. Who was the others?
A. Gillian was the only one that ordered me into the street.
Q. When you first got up there, did you go in the yard?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do when you first got into the yard?
A. Stood there talking with some folks.
Q. Who?
A. Charlie Cook and Mr. Miller, and some more.
Q. How long did you stand there talking?
A. 15 or 20 minutes.
Q. That you stood there talking after you got there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. During the time you were talking there, did you see anybody in uniform?
A. No Sir, not until after we came out of the barn.
Q. So during the 15 or 20 minutes, you saw no person in uniform in or about the premises any way?
A. They were in the house.
Q. I want to know if you saw them in or about the premises anywhere during the 15 or 20 minutes you
stood there talking in the yard?
A. Not in the yard, I did not.
Q. Did you see them in or about the premises? I cannot make plainer English than I have. During the 15
or 20 minutes you stood there talking, did you see any person in uniform in the house, or out of the
house, or about the premises?
A. No Sir, I do not recollect as I did.
Q. Did you see any physician while you stood there talking, in the house, or out of the house, or about
the premises?
A. No Sir. I did not go in the house at all.
Q. I want to know if you saw anybody while you stood there in the yard talking for 15 or 20 minutes;
that would be before you went up into the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That would be from 12 to 15 minutes past 12?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who was the first officer you did see?
A. Officer Doherty.
Q. When did you see him?
A. When we were going through to go to the barn, me and this Charlie Cook.
Q. Who is Charlie Cook?
A. A fellow that works for the Telephone Company.
Q. Did he go into the barn with you?
Page 442
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he see this round hole in the hay?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see anythingelse in the hay besides this round hole?
A. No Sir.
Q. That is all that led you to think there had been a form there?
A. Yes Sir. We looked all around to see if we could see any weapon or anything.
Q. Did you report this round hole to any officer?
A. I do not recollect as I did, sir.
Q. When was the first time you mentioned this round hole, or this impression perhaps I ought not to
characterize it; when was it you first mentioned this impression that you saw in the hay?
A. I mentioned it that day.
Q. Who do?
A. Some outsiders.
Q. To any officer?
A. No Sir.
Q. Ever to any officer?
A. No Sir. As I did not disturb the hay at all, I thought let them see it themselves.
Page 443
DR. FRANK W. DRAPER
Q. (Mr. Adams) What is your full name Doctor?
A. Frank Winthrop Draper.
Q. What is your profession?
A. Physician.
Q. Are you Medical Examiner for Suffolk County?
A. I am.
Q. For how many years?
A. 15 years and 2 months.
Q. Ever since the office has been established?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At the request of any official of the Commonwealth, did you go to Fall River on Tuesday following
this Thursday?
A. On Thursday following the tragedy I came to Fall River.
Q. At whose request?
A. At the request of the Attorney General of the Commonwealth.
Q. And were you present at the Autopsy that was then made on the body of Mr. and Mrs. Borden?
A. I was.
Q. Have you had any conference with me with reference to the results of that Autopsy, until you got
here today in response to a summons received last night?
A. None sir.
Q. Or with anybody representing the defence?
A. No one.
Q. Who were present at that Autopsy in the Oak Grove Cemetery?
A. Medical Examiner Dolan, Dr. Cone, Dr. Leary, Mr. Morrill, superintendent of the cemetery, and two
police officers whose names I do not know.
Q. And the Autopsy, I presume, proceeded in the usual way? I wont go into the details of that.
Whether from your observations at the time, you took notes then, or immediately after when the matter
was fresh in your mind?
A. I took notes then, and made other notes afterwards while the matter was fresh in my mind.
Q. If you like, I have no objections to your referring to those notes for the purpose of my examination.
Taking up the autopsy upon the body of Mr. Borden; where did you find, and what was the character of
the injuries to him?
A. Answering the first question first. I found all the injuries in a group on the left side of the face and
head, between the left side of the nose and the front of the ear, laterally between the margin of the lower
jaw and the top of the head, from below, upwards. Answering the other question; in my opinion they
were made by some edged instrument or weapon of considerable weight.
Page 444
Q. What instrument or weapon, in your opinion, might be an adequate cause for these injuries which
you saw?
A. I should think a hatchet would be adequate to cause the injuries I saw.
Q. Are you willing to name any other instrument, or do you think of any other instrument which would
also furnish an adequate cause for such injuries?
A. I do not at this moment think of any other instrument. A chisel of sufficiently broad blade might
have done it; but the hatchet is the most readily suggested instrument.
Q. In speaking of a hatchet, do you distinguish it from an ax, the ordinary ax?
A. I say hatchet, because of the length of the wounds. I do not think a broad ax, with a broad blade
would have done them, would have made them.
Q. I did not mean a broad ax, at all events not the broad ax we used on the farm to cut up pumpkins
with, with a broad blade; I mean the ordinary wood choppers ax; whether or not such an instrument as
that, or such a weapon as that which I presume you have seen, would furnish an adequate cause for such
injuries?
A. I think it would, assuming the edge of the blade to have been nearly at right angles, and not rounded.
Q. What do you mean in your answer by “rounded?”
A. I can better make a picture than describe it in words, I think. (The witness makes diagrams on paper.)
Q. Old axes I think have a rounded edge instead of a square edge as they are when they are new. A new
ax that had not been ground at the corners so to make it round would, I think, cause the wounds.
(Mr. Knowlton) You mean that one could have done it, and that could not?
A. I do not think that one could; but I think the other one could.
Q. You mentioned, as one of the reasons for preferring one kind of an instrument to another, as an
adequate cause of such an injury, the length of these injuries. Have you notes of the extent of these
injuries, or can you state it without your notes, I would be glad to have you do so, numbering them if
you please, beginning with the injury nearest the nose, and proceeding then towards the left side of the
face.
A. I cannot from memory.
Q. I said I am perfectly willing you should refer to your notes.
A. The first one beginning at the left nostril was four inches in length.
Q. Commencing where?
A. Commencing just above the nostril, going though it, going through the outer portion of the upper lip,
through the outer portion of the lower lip, and coming down near the angle of the jaw.
Page 445
(Mr. Knowlton) He does not mean the first one inflicted?
(Mr. Adams) No.
A. I described them as numbered at the autopsy.
Q. Whether in your opinion that injury was necessarily fatal?
A. It was not necessarily fatal.
Q. Proceed now to injury No. 2.
A. No. 2 measured 4 and 1/2 inches in length, and began at, or just below, the corner of the left eye, and
went parallel with No. 1, down through the upper lip and lower lip, not penetrating into the mouth, but
ending just above the edge of the jaw.
Q. Was that injury necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. The next one, if you please.
A. The third was 2 inches in length, and was just over the cheek bone, just over the prominence of the
cheek bone, and went through into the bone.
Q. Beginning under the eye?
A. Yes.
Q. Went through the bone?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Its extent was what?
A. Two inches in length.
Q. Its lateral extent?
A. It opened and gaped to the extent of an inch and 3/8.
Q. That was merely the gaping of the wound?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that injury necessarily fatal?
A. It was not.
Q. Take the next one.
A. No. 4 began in the forehead, a secondary cut as I would call it, went toward the left half an inch, then
down—
Q. Laterally, or slightly inclined up ward?
A. Very nearly laterally, very nearly parallel with the eyebrow, then down.
Q. Turning at a sharp angle?
A. At right angles, then down through the eye brow, through the eye at the outer portion, bisecting it,
nearly, then down into the cheek bone to end in the wound last described, No. 3.
Q. The length of that?
A. Altogether 4 and 3/4 inches, including the upper branch.
Q. Was that injury necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. Take now the next one.
A. No. 5 was a wound in the forehead, two inches in length, parallel with the upper portion of No. 4.
Q. Did that penetrate the skull?
Page 446
A. I think not.
Q. That was not necessarily fatal then?
A. No Sir.
Q. What was the next one?
A. No . 6 was through the temporal bone, above and in front of the ear, and was 4 inches long, just in
the left temple, also parallel with the others.
Q. Did it penetrate the skull?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. The next one.
A. No. 7 was an extension upward in the same line with the one last described and was two inches in
length.
Q. Going nearer the top of the head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Give its character, if you please.
A. It was also superficial, it was a scalp wound, and did not penetrate to the skull, and it was not
necessarily fatal.
Q. What was the next one?
A. No. 8 was an extension upward of No. 5, a short superficial wound in the scalp one quarter of an
inch long.
(Mr. Jennings) What does he mean by extension?
A. A different wound, but in the same line, upward.
Q. You will be good enough to say whether that was necessarily fatal.
A. No Sir, that was a superficial wound. No. 9 extended from the front of the left opening of the ear, the
left ear at its opening, upward, through the left temple, a distance of four inches, directly upward. Its
edges were parted to the extent of two inches. The bone under the wound was crushed into the brain.
Q. Was that necessarily fatal?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was it probably fatal?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What is the next one, if there are any others?
A. The tenth and last was behind the upper end of No. 9, two inches long, and at the lower portion
involved the fracture of the skull, but the upper portion did not.
Q. Speaking generally then of these injuries which you have described, Doctor, they were all in front of
practically the opening of the left ear?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Proceeding from there around to the left nostril?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this last one you have described probably a fatal injury, or a fatal wound?
A. I should group the wounds in the left temple together as being
Page 447
the cause of the death.
Q. Taking the injury which you have described as coming down through the temple or the eye brow and
cutting through the eye, bisecting the eye, and coming down through the cheek, what was the character of
that injury as to its direction, having reference to the body itself?
A. Do you mean whether it was perpendicular to the surface, or at angles?
Q. Yes.
A. It was, as we should call it, bevelled. Instead of entering at right angles to the surface, it entered at an
angle from the left to the right.
Q. It bevelled, and went from the left toward the right?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That would be from the outer side of the face towards the nose?
A. Yes Sir. As a general illustration, it was backward as well as bevelled.
Q. Were any of these other injuries which you have described bevelled in a similar direction?
A. Yes, the one in front of the left ear was bevelled in the same way.
Q. This one here?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How was the skull as to its thickness?
A. It was of average thickness. It did not represent extremes in either way.
Q. What was its thickness, if you recollect, in the left temple?
A. Approximately at its thinnest point, 1/16 of an inch. I did not measure it, but that is as my memory
serves.
Q. What was its thickness at the thickest portion of the skull?
A. I should say 3/8 of an inch; not more than that.
Q. Did you find in the examination which you made, or saw made there, any evidence of a crushing blow
upon the temple, or side of the head of the body, caused by the blunt end, or the hammer head of the
hatchet?
A. No Sir.
Q. In your opinion would all these incised wounds, which you have described, adequately cause the
appearances which you there found?
A. I think so.
Q. Have you made any experiments with blood by which you have an opinion as to the size and
appearance of blood spots, indicating the direction from which they came?
A. I have made experiments, and I have seen in my experience, so that I am able to say.
Q. Have you made any experiments with reference to this particular case?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What were those experiments?
Page 448
A. I pricked my finger with a sharp needle, and threw the blood from my finger on to a surface of white
paper placed perpendicularly.
Q. In what direction did you throw the blood?
A. As nearly as possible from above downward, not at right angles.
Q. So that it would strike this white paper surface in what direction?
A. At an acute angle.
Q. Have you the result of that experiment here, or any one of those?
A. I have.
Q. I would like to have you produce it.
(Mr. Knowlton) I object to this being produced as evidence.
Q. You may put it up Doctor. You do not need that as a memorandum for the purpose of testifying?
A. No Sir; the fact is well known.
Q. Assuming then that blood is thrown by any force from an instrument, or in a stream, upon the
surface of a perpendicular wall, and from upward down, what would be the general shape of the spot of
blood upon that paper or perpendicular surface?
A. The shape of a pear.
Q. Where would the stem of the pear be?
A. Downward.
Q. That is to say, the stem end of the pear would be upon that part of the spot which is farthest from
the force?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Assuming that blood was thrown from a similar instrument, or stream or spurt, from below, upward,
upon a like perpendicular surface, what would be the shape of the blood spot, under those
circumstances?
A. The same as before.
Q. That is to say, the stem end of the pear would be up. From below, upward, would be farthest from
the force?
A. Yes, it would be farthest from the origin of the force.
Q. Either by experiments, or by professional experience, have you observed this skipping of the blood
from the pear shaped end of a spot, or the skipping of a blood spot?
A. I do not quite catch your meaning. I do not quite understand the question.
Q. It is evident then I am all wrong, if you do not understand me. Whether or not this fact is not
sometimes seen, that a blood spot, a pear shaped blood spot, ends at a point, or the stem end of the
pear, and there are small ones leading directly from that, called skipping?
A. I understand, and answer yes.
Q. What is the term generally used?
A. I do not know. Skipping is a good term.
Q. That indicates what?
Page 449
A. Considerable force in the spurt or throwing of the blood.
Q. That is, it would indicate more blood?
A. Yes.
Q. Please state whether or not blood thrown in the manner which I have put in my other questions to
you upon a like surface placed horizontally, would in a general way assume the same shape?
A. I have no facts upon which to base an answer; but my belief is, it would.
Q. Would the spot in your opinion be more rounded and less pear shaped under those circumstances?
A. I think it would still preserve the pear shape, but modified as to force.
Q. With the stem end farthest from the force?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you ever visited the house which is pointed out as the Borden house?
A. I have never seen it; I do not know where it is.
Q. (Calling the attention of the witness to photograph No. 5, which is the picture of Mr. Borden in the
sitting room upon the sofa.) I will ask you, Doctor, to look at that photograph, and observing that the
body rests upon the safo, with the head upon the arm, presenting, as physicians say, exposing the left
side of the face, with the head resting a trifle higher up upon the arm of the sofa and that portion of the
arm which connects it with the back of the sofa where the curve is there, or the angle, and injuries were
found upon it like those which you have described as having been noted by you in the Autopsy at the
Oak Grove Cemetery, please give me such opinion as you have as to where the assailant stood when
these blows were given.
(Mr. Knowlton) If he is able to form one.
A. I prefer not to give an opinion, sir, because I have not studied the problem sufficiently. I do not
know enough of the facts yet to form an opinion.
Q. I have given you certain facts; you say you are not prepared upon the statement that I have given?
A. On those facts alone, I may have to modify it.
Q. I presume you have expressed no opinion upon it then to anybody up to the present time?
A. I have studied it somewhat. Yes, I have expressed an opinion to you this morning, with the comment
that I was not prepared to express it.
Q. Up to the present time, as you say, you have not formed an opinion?
A. Not a conclusive opinion that I wish to express.
Q. That you wish to advance?
A. Not under oath, no sir.
Page 450
Q. I will ask you, Doctor, and you may take refuge in the same haven if you see fit, whether the injuries
I have described, in your opinion might adequately have been made by a person standing behind Mr.
Borden that is to say, over him, or behind him, I mean using as a weapon a hatchet or some similar
instrument?
A. I should prefer not to enter that course of question and answer.
Q. You mean you are as kind to me as to anybody?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Taking these injuries upon the head of Mr. Borden which you have described, and considering them
in the order named, namely, beginning with the nose, and proceeding from there toward the left; did the
examination disclose then the distinct separation of the cuts, either through the flesh or through the bone,
from each other?
A. Yes Sir; they were distinct.
Q. That is to say, they were not crushed into one mass, but they still remained distinct?
A. They remained distinct.
Q. The cutting through the bone and skull was a separate and distinct cut from its neighbor?
A. In a number of instances; in most of the cases.
Q. Please state Doctor, whether then these injuries must have been inflicted by an instrument which was
very sharp.
A. The expression “very sharp” is relative. I should say sharp; not so sharp as a razor.
Q. And not so dull as a hoe. I want to get from you, and I know you do not want to conceal from me
your opinion at all, I want to get from you your opinion as to whether it was not what is commonly
termed a sharp cutting edge.
A. I am not prepared to answer that the instrument or weapon was an edged instrument or weapon. Its
sharpness I cannot say about because at the time of the autopsy, the appearances just after death had
been much modified.
Q. That prevented an adequate examination of the edges of the wounds?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which unabled you to observe how sharp the cutting edge was?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you observe the hair?
A. Yes.
Q. Upon one or both of the bodies?
A. Both.
Q. What was the appearance of the hair with reference to its being cut?
A. I saw no evidence of the cutting of the hair.
Q. You saw no evidence of that?
A. No Sir.
Q. You are not prepared to say whether it was cut, or not?
Page 451
A. I do not say it was not cut. I say I did not see it.
Q. Well, the fact that these injuries penetrated through the skull or cheek bone, as one is described by
you, and were close together, and still remained distinct, is a fact, is it not, indicating that the instrument
must have been a fairly thin and fairly sharp instrument?
A. I do not know about that.
Q. That is rather a matter of mechanics, is it?
A. I should think so.
Q. If you have an opinion Doctor, please give me it, with reference to the force of the blow which
caused these injuries with this instrument.
A. I am unable to tell you sir, I have no opinion upon it.
Q. Have you had any experience enabling you to form an opinion from the use of a hatchet, as to
whether a given blow was made with the right or left hand, provided a single blow was given?
A. No, I have not.
Q. I suppose your experience is a youthful experience, having reference to another profession than this
in the use of those instruments. The coagulation of blood is caused by what?
A. I do not know.
Q. Have you any opinion about it?
A. I have an opinion; but the opinions upon that matter are not matured, and they are changing;
physiologists are not certain about it.
Q. Can you form an opinion from the coagulation of blood which has come from the body, and is found
near it, as to the time of death?
A. Within very narrow limits.
Q. How narrow are those limits?
A. I should say after fifteen minutes, it would be unsafe to form an opinion.
Q. How near by an examination of the stomach can you come in forming an opinion as to the time of
death?
A. It would be approximate only.
Q. And by approximate, how near, within what limits?
A. I am unable to give minutes.
Q. Well, 60 of them?
A. I should not want to.
Q. That is to say, there might easily be an hours variation from the fact of the appearance of the
stomach?
A. Yes Sir, because stomachs differ in their digestive powers in different individuals, and in the same
individual under different circumstances.
Q. Those conditions might not be apparent in the stomach after death?
A. That is so.
Q. What, if any, arteries are there in the head?
Page 452
A. Outside or inside?
Q. Outside.
A. The principal artery is the temporal artery which runs on each side over the temple region in front,
above the ear.
Q. Did this autopsy disclose that any artery had been cut?
A. Not as a matter of demonstration. As a matter of inference, I am unable at this moment to say. I
should want to study the point. I saw no evidence of cutting an artery.
Q. Would such injuries as you have described be liable to cut an artery?
A. I think the temporal artery, or one of the branches, would be in the way.
Q. If cut, what would be the effect of the cutting by the instrument you have described, on the flowing
of the blood?
A. If cut through and through with a sharp instrument, a clean blow, the artery would spurt.
Q. In what direction, in your opinion?
A. In the direction of the flow of the blood.
Q. The flow of the blood in the left temple would be in what direction?
A. Upward towards the top of the head.
Q. What is the projectile force of that spurt; how far would it go?
A. It varies in individuals. I think taking all cases, and averaging them, two feet would be an average
length of the spurt.
Q. As a matter of experience, how much further than that has an artery similarly situated, been known
to have spurted?
A. I have seen the spurt of an artery as much as five feet on the wall of the room.
Q. That was in a subject under what circumstances?
A. In an adult subject in a surgical operation, from an artery of about the same size as the temporal
artery.
Q. What is the character of that spurting, a spraying spurt?
A. It is a spurt in jets, with each impulse of the heart.
Q. When you speak of its spurting in jets, following the action of the heart, would this spurt project the
spray or spots over, without leaving a trail between the farthest point of the projection and the subject,
or would it trail along, in your opinion?
A. It would trail it along.
Q. Do you mean it would trail it along the entire distance from the spurt? (This question was by the
Court.)
A. It would be, with perhaps an interval between the point of the cutting of the artery and the
beginning, a little interval. In fact the answer should be that it would be trailed along from its source to its
end.
Q. Did you make notes with reference to the body of Mrs. Borden?
A. I did.
Page 453
Q. I want to ask you one question in order to impress it, if you please. Whether, from the appearances
at the autopsy, there were any injuries upon her head or person which indicated that they might not be
adequately caused by the cutting blow?
A. I saw none, sir.
Q. There was a blow in the back you found at the autopsy for the first time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was your opinion with reference to the cause of that?
A. It was made with the same instrument or weapon which caused the scalp wound, an edged weapon
of considerable weight.
Q. Did you form an opinion as to how that blow was given, and where the party stood?
A. Not a mature opinion.
Q. In your opinion was it a miss blow, or dont you care to say?
A. A blow that was not intended to go there, do you mean?
Q. Yes, a miss blow.
A. Yes, I think so.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) I am not intending to go into the medical part of this case. I have not paid much
attention to it at this hearing. Do you remember it was in consequence of a telegram from Dr. Dolan that
you first came down here?
A. I think it was a double suggestion. At the time I received the telegram, I was not in the house when it
came, when I received it, I also received by mail a letter from the Attorney General. They came
coincidentally.
Page 454
DR. BENJAMIN J. HANDY
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your full name Doctor?
A. Benjamin J. Handy.
Q. You are a physician and surgeon?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you been in active practice?
A. 20 years.
Q. What portion of the time in Fall River?
A. All of it.
Q. Do you remember the day when the tragedy occurred, the Borden murder?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were you in the vicinity of the house during the forenoon at any time?
A. I passed it twice.
Q. At what time?
A. Once in the morning about nine, and returning about somewhere between 20 minutes past ten and
twenty minutes of eleven; that is as near as I can calculate.
Q. Were you on foot, or in a carriage?
A. In a carriage.
Q. Did you see any person in the vicinity of the Borden house at that time?
A. I did.
Q. Where?
A. Opposite the space between Dr. Kelly’s house and Mr. Wade’s store.
Q. Was he a stranger, or somebody that you knew?
A. A stranger.
Q. What attracted your attention to him?
A. In the first place I noticed a very pale, exceedingly pale individual—
(Mr. Knowlton) I had some doubts as to whether the evidence would be admissible or not. At this
hearing, I would like to know what the Doctor has to say.
Q. What attracted your attention to him?
A. I noticed a very pale, exceedingly pale individual, and he was passing very slowly up the street,
south.
Q. Where was he with reference to the Borden house?
A. He was just beyond Dr. Kelly’s house, south, opposite the space between that and the store.
Q. Describe his appearance as near as you can.
A. He was a young man of medium height, dressed in a light suit of clothes.
Q. What do you mean by light; can you give any color?
Page 455
A. Sort of grayish.
Q. A grayish color; anythingelse that you can recollect?
A. I was struck by his peculiar appearance. I could not define what I saw about him. There was
something about him that attracted my attention, so that I turned and looked at him the second time, as I
went by him.
Q. What did he appear to be doing?
A. Slowly moving south, very slowly.
Q. This you say was right in front of the Kelly house?
A. Just to the south of the front, opposite the space between that and the store.
Q. Between Wade’s store?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The Kelly house is the next house to the Borden house?
A. The next house to it, yes sir.
Q. Did you ever see the man before?
A. I could not state that I have.
Q. What is your opinion?
A. My opinion is that I had seen him before.
Q. When and where?
A. Within a few days on Second street.
Q. On that same street?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see a man named Thomas Bowles around there about the same time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You know him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was it, or not, Thomas Bowles?
A. No Sir.
Q. Have you seen the man since?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you recollect what day it was that you saw him there on Second street before this?
A. No sir, I do not.
Q. Do you know whether any search has been made to find the man?
A. I could not answer that.
Q. Have you, or not, been called to identify men that the policemen had been looking for as this man?
A. I have.
Q. Were either of the men that you were called to identify the man you saw that morning on Second
street?
A. No Sir.
Q. Can you describe him any further than you have, about the size and height of the man? Whether he
had a smooth face, or beard or mustache?
A. I have the impression that he had a mustache. He was a small man
Page 456
five feet four; five feet three or four.
Q. Short, was he?
A. Yes Sir. He had a very full, and very white forehead, full face.
Q. You say his appearance was so peculiar that you turned around and looked at him a second time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I do not ask you what you said; but did you speak to anybody about seeing this man, after the
tragedy?
A. I spoke to my wife first, immediately on getting him, after hearing of it.
Q. Did you speak to anybodyelse about it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. Between six and seven that night.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) To whom did you speak at six o’clock?
A. To the officers that are stationed at the patrol station nearly opposite my house.
Q. You were in town that day?
A. Yes.
Q. You either had been before that, or afterwards very soon were over to Marion?
A. Yes Sir, the next day.
Q. It was at your cottage that Miss Lizzie was expected to go?
A. Yes.
Q. Had she been over there?
A. I think she had.
Q. She had been over once and came back again?
A. That is my impression.
Q. How long did she stay there?
A. I do not know.
Q. Were you there when she was there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know when it was?
A. I have the impression it was the Saturday before.
Q. When did the party go? There was quite a party of them, was there not?
A. I could not tell you, sir.
Q. It was the next day you went to Marion?
A. Yes Sir, Friday.
Q. I think I saw you there that afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. I did not quite hear what you said. He was a pale man?
A. Very pale, sir.
Q. And walked slowly?
A. Very slowly.
Q. Was there anythingelse that attracted your attention about him?
Page 457
A. Well, yes sir. I cannot define what. He attracted my attention so I turned and looked at him. I cannot
say whether it was agitation or what it was.
Q. What time in the morning did you say it was?
A. Somewhere between 20 minutes past 10 and 20 minutes of eleven; in that twenty minutes.
Q. Where was he when you saw him?
A. Opposite the space between Dr. Kelley’s house and the store next south on that side of the street.
Q. Dr. Kelly’s is the next house south of the Borden house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which way was he going?
A. He was facing towards the south. He did not always face the south. He turned partially around
several times while I was going by, that is moving.
Q. Did he have anything in his hand?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Did he have on an ordinary sack coat?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He was alone, was he?
A. Alone.
Q. Did you see him go anywhere?
A. No. I drove by him.
Q. Did you see him more than once that morning?
A. No sir, only once.
Q. You were in your carriage driving?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The other time you thought you saw him was some days before that?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where then?
A. On that same street. I could not say just where.
Q. He did not attract your attention then?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was there any difference in his appearance the first and second time?
A. I could not say that I saw any.
Q. Can you tell me why he did not attract your attention in the first place?
A. No Sir I could not.
Q. But he did the second time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you saw him the second time, did it occur to you then you had seen him there before?
A. It did not at the time.
Q. Sometimes afterwards you thought of that?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 458
Q. It was not because you had seen him before that he attracted your attention the second time?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or that you consciously recognized him as somebody you had seen before?
A. No Sir.
Q. It was his appearance that time?
A. It was his appearance at that time.
Q. Was his appearance different the second time?
A. I did not observe him very closely the first time.
Q. But you did observe him closely the second time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see anybodyelse on the sidewalk?
A. Not near him.
Q. You went down to Boston with some officer to try and find the man?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You understand quite active efforts have been made by the police to find such a man?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And they have followed down every rumor?
A. Yes Sir.
RE-DIRECT
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What did he appear to be doing when he turned around?
A. He did not turn clear around. He seemed to be moving or turning or vacillating or oscillating on the
sidewalk.
Q. Do you mean looking and turning back and looking again?
A. No Sir, looking down on the sidewalk.
Q. Not looking back at the house or at anything?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did he appear to be drunk?
A. No Sir.
Q. You said he was oscillating.
A. It was not that way, sir.
Q. It was not that kind of oscillation?
A. No Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton) You are not obliged to do it; I have no right to ask you to do it, unless everybody is
willing. I would like to see if you could sort of imitate that movement in walking along.
A. I could not do it.
(Mr. Knowlton) I made some public allusion to the dress pattern. I am satisfied that is the dress pattern;
so that whatever may have been supposed to have been in the case, is out of it. I say that in justice to
the defendant. I ought to say I never supposed there was anything about it; I simply wanted to see it,
that is all.
Page 459
DELIA S. MANLEY
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Delia S. Manley.
Q. Where do you live?
A. 206 Second street.
Q. Do you remember the day of the Borden murder; I do not mean the date.
A. I remember the day; but I do not remember the date.
Q. Were you in the vicinity of the house on the morning of the murder?
A. I was.
Q. About what time?
A. About quarter of ten.
Q. How do you fix the time?
A. Well, I fix the time by the distance I went. I went direct from there down to Perry Gifford’s store,
and perhaps remained in the store about five minutes, went directly on to the street, and the City Hall
clock struck ten.
Q. Now did you see any person near or about the Borden premises?
A. I did see someone on the premises.
Q. Where?
A. Standing in the north gateway, that is the gateway north of the house.
Q. Where were you?
A. I was on the sidewalk.
Q. At what point on the sidewalk?
A. I was between the two houses, between the Borden house and the Churchill house.
Q. Were you on the same side of the street as the Borden house?
A. I was.
Q. Right between the Borden house and the Churchill house?
A. Yes.
Q. You know where the Churchill house is?
A. Yes.
Q. The house this side of the Borden house?
A. Yes.
Q. What were you doing there?
A. I was standing there talking with a gentleman that was in a carriage.
Q. What was this man doing?
A. He did not seem to be doing anything, only simply standing in the gateway.
Q. Was he a young man, or old man, or middle aged man?
A. Well, if I was to give it to the best of my understanding, I should say that he was young.
Q. Did you know Mr. Borden?
A. No Sir I did not.
Page 460
Q. Do you know Mr. Morse?
A. No Sir.
Q. Stand up please, Mr. Morse. Was that the man?
A. No Sir.
Q. A younger man than he?
A. I should say it was.
Q. I do not know whether I asked you or not; I will ask you again. What did you say he was doing?
A. He was standing in the gateway, leaning against the south gate post; standing something like that.
Q. Did you leave him there when you went away?
A. I did.
Q. Which way did you go?
A. I came north. I came down Second street.
Q. Have you lived in Fall River all your life?
A. No Sir.
Q. How long have you lived in Fall River?
A. I have lived here not some ten years.
Q. Did you ever see this man before to your knowledge?
A. No Sir, I did not.
Q. Could you describe him at all, Mrs. Manley?
A. I do not think I could.
Q. Do you recollect what kind of clothes he had on, whether gray or black, or anything of that kind?
A. I do not think they were black.
Q. You do not think they were black?
A. I do not.
Q. Do you recollect anything about his face, as to whether he wore whiskers or beard?
A. I do not.
Q. That you say was about what time?
A. Quarter or ten minutes of ten.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) I suppose you see a great many people every day you go out, that you do not
know?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You do not claim to know quarter of the people in Fall River?
A. No Sir.
Q. This man was standing there quietly?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not doing anything?
A. No Sir, did not seem to be.
Q. Nothing in his hand?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was he looking towards the street?
A. He seemed to be looking toward us.
Q. And was still standing there still when you went away, out of sight?
Page 461
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you went by, who was with you?
A. A lady named Mrs. Hart was with me.
Q. Who else?
A. The gentleman and lady in the carriage that I was talking with.
Q. Who were they?
A. The gentleman was Mr. Manley; the lady, I do not know.
Q. So there were four people that saw him?
A. That I cannot say for. I said nothing to those other people about him.
Q. There were four people in sight of him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where he could see them?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He did not move, he stayed there?
A. Yes, he stayed right there.
(Mr. Jennings) Where is this other lady that you speak of?
(Mr. Knowlton) I do not make any point of that.
A. She lives near Adamsville.
MARIENNE CHAGNON
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Marienne Chagnon.
Q. Mrs. Chagnon has some difficulty in expressing herself. Where do you live?
A. 31 Third street.
Q. You are the wife of Dr. Chagnon?
A. Yes.
Q. You live in the house that has been spoken of as in the rear of Mr. Borden’s?
A. Yes.
Q. Were you at home the night before the murder?
A. Yes Sir, Wednesday night.
Q. Were you at home the day of the murder?
A. No Sir. We were going to Central Falls by the train nine minutes past eleven.
Q. So you were not there at the time of the murder?
A. I suppose not.
Q. You went away, and took that train to Central Falls?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now the night before the murder, I want to know if you saw or heard anything of any person about
the Borden fence?
A.Yes Sir.
Page 462
Q. Now wont you state what the circumstances were?
A. It was about between eleven and eleven and a half, and we were alone, Miss Martha, my daughter
and I. She was playing the piano, and she told me “did you hear somebody?”
Q. She said something which attracted your attention?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear anything then?
A. Yes. She said “did you hear some noise”? I was near the door; I listened; I heard some noise myself in
the yard back.
Q. What did it sound like? What did it appear to be?
A. It seemed to me it was like somebody jumping on the fence.
Q. That is what it sounded like to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What fence was that?
A. I cannot tell you because we have not gone to see, because we were afraid to go.
Q. I do not ask you whose fence it was; but from what direction did it appear to come?
A. It came from the back of the house near the kitchen, in the west part, I suppose.
Q. Is there a fence there between your land and Mr. Borden’s?
A. Yes, there is a fence.
Q. Is, or is not that the direction from which it appeared to come?
A. I do not understand.
Q. Was that the direction from which it appeared to come? Did the noise appear to come from the
direction of that fence?
A. Yes Sir, about that.
Q. What did you do in consequence of this noise? What effect did it produce upon you and your
daughter?
A. After, we forgot it. But I was to go into the cellar to look after something, and Martha did not want
to come. She was too much afraid. I was obliged to go alone.
Q. It frightened you both?
A. Yes Sir, we were both frightened.
Q. It frightened you both so you did not want to go into the cellar afterwards?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were the windows of your room open, do you recollect?
A. Perhaps there was some, but I do not recollect it.
Q. You cannot tell?
A. No Sir.
Q. How distinctly, how clearly, could you hear the noise?
A. Very well, because the door between the dining room and the sitting room was open. I told Martha
“dont be afraid, it is the dog.” She says “no, the dog is there.” She showed me the piazza.
Q. You tried to make her think it was the dog, and she said the dog was on the piazza there?
A. Yes.
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Q. Did she point the dog out to you?
A. No, but she saw the dog there.
Q. She was nearer the window than you were?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The window opened right on the piazza?
A. Yes Sir, it is very low.
Q. A low window that went way down to the piazza?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Now Mrs. Chagnon, is there any piazza on the front of your house?
A. Perhaps you can call it so in speaking about the door, the door and the step. I do not speak very
well.
Q. There is nothing but the jet over the door, a projection?
A. Perhaps you can call it a piazza.
Q. That only extends over the steps?
A. That is all.
Q. There is no piazza extending across the front of the house?
A. Not excepting the concrete walk.
Q. Miss Collett spoke something about a bench upon which she sat; where is that?
A. On the concrete.
Q. The piazza is on the south side of the house, is it not?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. The settee is kept on the concrete in front of the house?
A. Yes.
Q. Could anybody sitting on that bench, on that concrete, see what was going on in the back of the
yard?
A. There is more than a bench. There is one nearer the way than the other one. If she sat on the bench
near the way, she could see anybody in the orchard, and on every side.
Q. Is not there a long porch comes out on the end of your house, that would cut off the view? Is there a
porch which extends out southward from your house into the orchard? There is the street, here is the
orchard; is there a porch, an extension which runs out on the west end of your house, and runs out south
into the orchard?
A. That is the way, the public way.
Q. The street?
A. Yes Sir, and she was there.
Q. Right in front of the house?
A. Yes. She was walking there.
Q. When she was sitting on that bench in front of the house, could she see this fence back here, of Mr.
Borden’s?
A. No Sir. If she was here, she can.
Q. I know; but suppose she was on the bench in front of the house, could she?
A. No Sir. She could look in part of the orchard.
Q. Directly south?
A. Yes Sir, and that side.
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Q. But she could not see up here to the fence?
A. She can if she sat here; she could see people passing there, but not in the back.
Q. Not in the back, but she could in front?
A. Yes. She could not see in the back.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Was the dog there that night?
A. Yes.
Q. He was on the piazza?
A. Miss Chagnon told me, she told me so. She showed the dog; I have not seen him.
Q. You did not hear him go out there where the noise was?
A. No Sir.
Q. Your yard has Mrs. Churchill’s yard behind and also Mr. Borden’s, does it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Both yards were behind your house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Your lot is bigger than that other one, and takes in both?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What kind of a dog was it?
A. After eleven.
Q. What kind of dog was it?
A. I cannot tell you.
Q. A little or big dog?
A. A big dog.
Q. What they call a Newfoundland?
A. No. I want to tell you the name, but I fear to mix it.
Q. St. Bernard?
A. It is mixed. It is a good guardian. He is a little old and lazy now.
Q. He did not go for that noise on the fence? You did not hear him starting out for this man that scared
you?
A. No Sir.
MARTHA CHAGNON
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Martha Chagnon.
Q. Do you live with your parents on Third street?
A. Yes Sir, 31 Third street.
Q. In the rear of the Borden house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Wont you tell us what took place in regard to this noise that you heard on the night before the
murder.
A. It was about eleven o’clock, and I was playing on the piano, and all
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of a sudden I heard a noise, just like if somebody tried to jump over a fence. Then I did not go in the rear
because I was afraid to go there. I just stayed in the sitting room and told Mrs. Chagnon that I heard
some noise.
Q. Do you know where the dog was at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where was he?
A. On the piazza on the south east.
Q. On the east side of the room?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where did this noise appear to come from, the east or the west?
A. The west side.
Q. Was that the back side of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there a fence on the back side of the house between your land and Mr. Borden’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Whether it appeared to come from the direction of that fence?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there more than one sound?
A. No. I heard the noise about five minutes.
Q. Then there was more than one sound?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You mean you only heard one time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you mean you continued to hear this noise as if a party was getting over the fence for about five
minutes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And it came from the direction you say of this Borden fence?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know of any other cause that could have occasioned such a noise as that?
A. No, I do not know.
Q. Did you have any horse in your barn?
A. No Sir. We used to have them, but not now.
Q. You did not that night?
A. No Sir.
Q. Now I want to ask you is there any piazza on the front of your house?
A. No Sir.
Q. What is there at the front of the house there?
A. It is a kind of a walk side of it.
Q. Your house is raised up above the street, is it not?
A. Yes Sir a little.
Q. Where the dirt was raised up, it has been concreted?
A. Yes, on the front side.
Q. Was there a chair and bench ot settee out there?
A. Benches and one chair.
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Q. Is that where the people sat out there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was there any bench, to your knowledge, on the piazza on the south side?
A. No Sir.
Q. Could a person sitting on the front, there where that bench is usually kept, see the Borden fence from
there?
A. Only the south side, the south west, a part of it, that is all.
Q. A large or small part?
A. A small part.
Q. All the rest of the fence would be hidden from them?
A. Yes Sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Where that bench was, that was out in front of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not on any piazza at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Out of doors?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did the bench rest on, the ground?
A. No Sir.
Q. What on, the walk?
A. Yes.
Q. Sitting on that bench, you could see the driveway, the end of it?
A. On Third street, yes.
Q. You could see on the front side of your lot from the driveway, clear up to Mr. Crowe’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where were you sitting that night when you heard the noise?
A. Playing on the piano.
Q. Where was that?
A. In the sitting room on the south side of the house.
Q. How near the piazza is it, next behind the piazza?
A. Yes Sir, about four feet, probably.
Q. I mean the piazza where the dog was.
A. Yes.
Q. There is a window opens out on that piazza?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that open?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was the window open out into the yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. The windows were all shut?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You heard the noise through the shut windows?
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A. Yes Sir.
Q. You think it lasted about five minutes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. He had a good deal of trouble getting over the fence?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you got a pretty good idea how much five minutes is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long have you been on the stand now?
A. I could not say.
Q. Have you been on the stand five minutes?
A. I cannot say.
Q. Give me some idea what the noise was, pounding or scraping?
A. Pounding.
Q. Kind of a pounding noise that lasted for five minutes?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not go to the door to see what the noise was?
A. No Sir.
Q. You did not know but what it was in the ice house, over there, where they were dumping ice?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did it sound like the way ice is handled, when they thump ice?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did it sound like horses any?
A. No Sir.
Q. Give me some idea what this noise sounded like, this pounding over there. Did you hear any scraping
noise?
A. No Sir.
Q. Are you sure it was the night before?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You have never said it was the night before that?
A. No Sir.
Q. When did you tell anybody about it first?
A. Because I was at Providence, and I heard of it, about the murder, so I said I heard some noise the
night before; that is all I said.
Q. Did your step mother go with you? That was your step mother, I suppose?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did she go with you?
A. To Providence, yes.
Q. When did you get back?
A. That same night, the 4th.
Q. What officer did you notify, do you remember?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did your father do it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What officer did he notify, what policeman?
A. I did not notify anybody.
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RE-DIRECT
Q. (Mr. Jennings) Did you say this noise appeared to come from the rear of the house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know where the ice house is?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is the ice house in the rear of your house?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did it appear to come from the direction of the ice house?
A. No Sir, the back of the house.
Q. The back of your house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which direction is this ice house from you?
A. I could not say. There is a barn and house between the ice house and my house.
Q. A barn and a house before you get to the ice house on Third street?
A. Yes, going up Third street.
Q. First there is your house, then your orchard to the south of your house, then the barn and house, and
then the ice house is beyond that. I understand you to say that the sound did not appear to come from
the ice house at all? The sound did not appear to come from the ice house?
A. No Sir.
ALFRED CLARKSON
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Alfred Clarkson.
Q. You are a plumber?
A. No Sir.
Q. What is your business, steam fitter?
A. Steam engineer.
Q. Were you at the Borden house on the morning of the murder?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. At what time, as near as you can recollect?
A. About 11.40.
Q. Did you go into the barn at all that morning?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. About how soon was it after you got there before you went in?
A. I should say about seven or eight minutes.
Q. Did you go up stairs in the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you observe up there, in the upper part of the barn, if anything?
A. I noticed that the door on the south, where they put the hay in stood open about seven or eight
inches, and there was considerable hay
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there that extended from the south west corner to the north.
Q. Extended across the barn?
A. Yes Sir, mostly on the north west corner.
Q. Most of the hay was on the north side of the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you notice anything about the hay, except that; whether it appeared to have been disturbed at
all, or not?
A. In two or three places it looked as though it had been stepped in. In one place west of the window, it
looked as though a man had laid there.
Q. In what direction from the window?
A. North of the west window.
Q. Did you disturb anything there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was anybodyelse up there at the time that you recollect?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who?
A. There were three gentlemen that I did not know.
Q. Any of them officers?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know officer Medley?
A. I think I do.
Q. Did you see him up there in the barn?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see him up there around the premises when you first got there?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see him afterwards?
A. In the afternoon.
Q. You did not see him until afternoon?
A. No Sir.
Q. Had you been home, and come back then?
A. I went home about five minutes past one.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) Did these three men go up before, or after you?
A. Before me.
Q. You found them up there walking around the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you seen any of them here?
A. No Sir.
Q. Have you been here during the trial?
A. Not but one day.
Q. What day was that? Have you been here today?
A. Since quarter to eleven.
Q. Did you see Mr. Donnelly, the witness just before dinner?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was he one of them?
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A. No Sir.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. Yes Sir, in the yard.
Q. After you came down?
A. No Sir.
Q. Before you went up?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see him when he came into the yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you know him to speak to him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you speak to him?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did he say anything about going up in the barn?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you say anything to him about going up in the barn?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did anybody say anything about going up, to you?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You went up because you saw other people going up, you say?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see the other people going up when you started to go up?
A. No Sir.
Q. There were three men you saw there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You cannot give me the names of any of them?
A. No Sir.
Q. They were people that you never had seen before?
A. I did not recognize them.
Q. What officers did you see when you got there?
A. Officer Allen.
Q. Anybodyelse?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see anybody at the door?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who was that?
A. Charles Sawyer.
Q. Did you see any of the officers come?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Who?
A. I cannot give you their names.
Q. You saw officers come?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do the seven or eight minutes before you went up in the barn?
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A. I stood on the steps two or three minutes, then went to the foot of the stairs, talking with somebody,
I do not know who; and I saw Mr. Wixon.
Q. How do you fix the time at 11.40 when you got there?
A. Simply because I looked at my watch about 11.35.
Q. Where were you then?
A. Sitting on the door step of D. Brock’s office on Third street.
Q. Did you hear of the murder then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And went right around?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see anybodyelse go up in the barn?
A. I saw several go up while I was there.
Q. How many did you see go up before you did?
A. I think four.
Q. Three of those where those you saw there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You saw one other beside the four?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know who that was?
A. No Sir, never saw him before. I did not recognize him. They went up while I was in the carriage
house, three of them.
Q. When did the other one go up?
A. When we were coming out.
Q. Did you go into the house then?
A. No Sir.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I came out and went to the stoop and stood there talking with Southward Miller and one or two
other parties. I stayed around there until I went to dinner.
Q. Did you see anybodyelse go up in the barn?
A. No Sir, not to say they went into the barn. I saw a number go towards the barn.
Q. How many do you think you saw go towards the barn?
A. I should say a dozen.
MARY E. BRIGHAM
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Mary E. Brigham.
Q. Are you familiar with the Borden house?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A friend of Lizzie’s?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And have you been there considerable during the last two or three weeks?
A. A great deal.
Page 472
Q. Do you know the way in which this front door was fastened at or about the time of the murder? I do
not mean at the time of the murder, but in what way the door was fastened?
A. Do you mean in what ways the front door could be fastened?
Q. Yes.
A. It had an ordinary spring lock, a bolt, and also you could turn the key to lock the door.
Q. Now suppose the bolt and the key lock are both thrown back so that there is nothing but the spring
lock to fasten it; now does that spring lock have any catch or anything that prevents its being sprung
when the door is shut to?
A. No Sir.
Q. You know what I mean, that some spring locks have a little thing that you can push in that holds the
bolt back; is there anything of that kind of this spring lock?
A. Nothing.
Q. So if the door is shut at any time, the spring lock, if it works properly, should fasten the door,
should it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you claim there is any running water up stairs?
(Mr. Knowlton) No.
Q. Did you make an experiment this noon, Mrs. Brigham, to see if you could see a person lying flat
upon the floor between the bed and the bureau, while you were standing on the upper entry floor?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you stand there yourself?
A. I did.
Q. Did you have anybody lie down between the bureau and the bed?
A. I did.
Q. Who was it?
A. Mr. Morse.
Q. Could you see any portion of his person while he was lying there?
A. Not any.
Q. Do you know about this clothes room that opens out of the front hall?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is it a large room, a large clothes room?
A. I heard a description given of it, or its dimensions given during this hearing, that I thought were
about so. I should call it 5 feet by eight.
Q. Just what was given this morning, or very nearly?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know whether it is light in there so when you go in there, you can see perfectly well what
things are hanging up there?
A. I never had any trouble.
Q. You have been in there?
Page 473
A. A great many times.
Q. Do you recollect how the clothes hung there, whether there is a row of hooks along the wall, and then
another row coming out further from the wall, which is screwed into the bottom of the shelf?
A Yes Sir.
Q. So the dresses there hang separate and apart from each other?
A. Yes Sir.
CHARLES S. SAWYER
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Charles S. Sawyer.
Q. You are a painter by trade?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. A sign painter?
A. A little of everything in that line.
Q. You mostly confine yourself to ornamental painting, do you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Are you the Charles Sawyer that has been referred to here as the person who went up with Officer
Allen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Can you fix the time, at all, when it was that you went up with him?
A. I should say not with any degree of accuracy between ten and fifteen minutes.
Q. What did you do, you and Officer Allen?
A. We went in, and he placed me at the door, and told me to let no one out.
Q. Which door?
A. The north door. He told me to let no one in or out until he came down, except police officers.
Q. Who was in there when you got there?
A. Miss Lizzie, Miss Russell, and Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Was Dr. Bowen there?
A. Dr. Bowen? I do not recollect of seeing him; but I think I let him out of the door afterwards, shortly
after I got there. I should judge that he was in the house.
Q. Where was Miss Lizzie when you first saw her?
A. Sitting in a chair, not in the center of the kitchen, but very near the entry door.
Q. How near did you go to her?
A. I went within probably the nearest about three feet from her.
Q. Did you look at her?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you see any signs of blood on her?
A. No Sir.
Page 474
Q. Was her hair disarranged at all?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were there any signs of blood on her hands?
A. No Sir, not that I saw.
Q. Did you see Miss Russell bathing her face or hands?
A. I saw them ministering to her in different ways.
Q. Did you see any blood on her dress, or any signs of anything of that kind?
A. No Sir, nothing.
Q. Did you see the hatchet?
A. I saw the hatchet, yes sir.
Q. How many hatchets did you see?
A. I suppose it was the hatchet, it was the one that was brought up and examined and criticized.
Q. Was that brought up stairs?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When was it brought up?
A. I think the police officers went down stairs and were searching, and some of them brought up I think
two axes that I know of and this hatchet, and I do not know but what there was another one, but I am
not certain.
Q. You do not recollect whether there was one or two hatchets?
A. One or two.
Q. Do you recollect whether one of the hatchets they brought up had a claw on it, or not?
A. The one I saw here yesterday in Court looked very much like it.
Q. Did you examine it yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. Did that look like the hatchet you examined?
A. I did not examine the one that was here. I should say it looked very much like it at the distance I saw
it. I thought it looked a little smaller.
(Mr. Knowlton) I agree that is the one.
Q. Do you know who brought it up?
A. I do not. The first I saw of it, His Honor the Mayor was looking at it.
Q. Mayor Coughlin?
A. Yes.
Q. Anybodyelse?
A. I did not see any one else at that time. I was going out in the entry, and letting people in and out that
required it.
Q. Where was this that he was examining the hatchet?
A. He stood in the back entry door leading into the kitchen. He stood there.
Q. Do you know what became of the hatchet after he examined it?
Page 475
A. I do not know whether he laid it on the kitchen table or not, but that is where I found it.
Q. Did you see Dr. Dolan examine it at all?
A. No Sir I did not. It was about the time they were making the autopsy, as I supposed, and he was not
out there then.
Q. That hatchet was left on the table there, was it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You found it there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How long should you think that hatchet remained on the kitchen table?
A. I could not say that. I do not know how long it had been there when I picked it up. I saw it there
with some cans of milk setting on the table.
Q. Were the axes there too?
A. I do not distinctly recollect about the axes at that time that they were on the table at all. I saw the
axes.
Q. Where did you see them?
A. Somebody had them. One of them was pretty badly knicked up, kind of open between, gapes
between the blade and handle, no edge to it apparently. That was the only one I thought would be liable
to do the deed.
Q. The one that was lying on the kitchen table?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do when you examined it?
A. I looked it over pretty thoroughly, and I rubbed my finger on the side of it.
Q. You was the man that did the scraping on that hatchet?
A. I do not know as I scraped it any, I rubbed it, and got a dried yellow rust off.
Q. Tell us just what you did.
A. I took it up and looked at it, and turned it over and looked at it, and turned it over and looked at it.
Q. Did you say you rubbed the blade of it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did it appear when you rubbed it?
A. A dry powder, I got off a yellowish powder, apparently rust; it looked to me like a dry rust.
Q. Did you see any indications of blood on it anywhere?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or hair?
A. No Sir.
Q. Now cant you give us any idea of how long that hatchet stayed there?
A. I could not, not definitely. I could answer for its being there when I picked it up; beyond that, I do
not dare to say. I laid it back there again.
Q. You do not know who took it away?
Page 476
A.No Sir, I do not.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) What time of day was that when you saw the hatchet?
A. I think at the time they were in performing an autopsy, or getting ready to do it, as I understood it.
Q. In the afternoon then?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Three o’clock?
A. I do not know as it was quite as late as that, though I would not swear.
Q. Was it when they brought the body down stairs?
A. I do not know when they brought it down.
Q. They were getting ready to have the autopsy?
A. I should judge so. I had admitted quite a number of Doctors.
Q. You had been there quite a while then?
A. Ever since I came in the morning. I stayed there until six o’clock.
(Court) What time did you get there in the morning?
A. Probably from ten to fifteen minutes past eleven I should say.
(Court) I understood you to say ten?
A.No, eleven.
JEROME C. BORDEN
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Jerome C. Borden.
Q. You are a lumber dealer?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Mr. Borden, did you go to this Borden house a day or two after the tragedy?
A. The next day.
Q. Did you have occasion to go in the front door?
A. I did.
Q. Was the door closed?
A. It was.
Q. How did you get in?
A. I took hold of the knob to the door, and turned it and pushed the door open.
Q. You did not have to ring to get in?
A. No Sir.
Q. Nobody let you in?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was, or was not, the front door fully closed?
A. It was apparently closed.
Q. So if there was a spring on there at that time, it did not keep you out?
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A. It did not show that the door was hindered from opening by any spring lock then.
Q. Do you know whether there was a spring lock on it?
A. I do not know; I did not examine it.
Q. Was there any surprise manifested at your getting in, at the time?
(Objected to.)
Q. What effect did it have on the people in the house to see you come in without ringing?
(Objected to.)
(Mr. Jennings) That is a matter of action. I do not ask what they said.
(Court) If you deem it is material, ask it I do not see its materiality. I leave that to your own judgment
entirely.
Q. What effect did your coming in in that way appear to have on the people in the house?
A. I thought they seemed a little surprised.
Q. Of course I cannot ask you what they said, Mr. Borden. That was the day after the murder?
A. It was.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) The amount of it is, the time when you opened the door, if the spring lock was
there, it was not properly locked, it was not caught?
A. I could not have opened it, if it had been caught.
Q. It was not shut far enough to catch it?
A. No.
Q. I suppose you did not take particular notice how far it was shut up?
A. I looked at the jamb of the door first, but saw it was closed, as I came up the steps.
Q. You took hold of it, and opened it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Were there some officers out there at the gate?
A. There were, yes sir.
Page 478
PHEBE BOWEN
Q. (Mr. Jennings) What is your name?
A. Phebe Bowen.
Q. You are the wife of Dr. Bowen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You are a friend of Miss Lizzie and Miss Emma?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You have known the Borden family all your life, have you?
A. I think I have always known Emma Borden, and have known Miss Lizzie since she has lived on the
street, twenty years.
Q. You have lived at the same house all your life?
A. Always.
Q. And have been in the habit of going there frequently?
A. Yes.
Q. And were very friendly with them?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you know anything about Mrs. Borden being sick the night before?
A. Yes.
Q. I mean Tuesday night?
A. Yes sir.
Q. Were you in the house Wednesday at all?
A. I was there Wednesday night soon after six o’clock.
Q. Did you see Lizzie at all Wednesday?
A. I saw her go down the street just before I went in there.
Q. You saw Lizzie go down the street just before you went in there, and that was sometime after six
o’clock?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you have any talk with Mrs. Borden about their being sick?
A. I did, I asked her how they were feeling. She said she was feeling better. Mr. Borden said he was not
feeling very well. I says “I suppose Lizzie is better, for I saw her going out.” Mrs. Borden says “yes, she
has not been out all day, but she has gone now to see Alice Russell.”
Q. That was after you had seen Lizzie go down street yourself?
A. Yes Sir, which was soon after I had eaten my supper; we have supper at six o’clock.
Q. Now the day of the murder, was it you Bridget first spoke to about something being wrong over
there?
A. She came to my house soon after eleven o’clock, for the Doctor.
Q. Can you give me any idea what time it was?
A. I had occasion to look at the clock five minutes to eleven; it was soon after that, she came to the
house and inquired for Dr. Bowen.
Q. And he was out?
A. Yes Sir. I told her I wound send him as soon as he came in.
Q. Did you go over then?
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A. I did not.
Q. Did you go over before the Doctor came home?
A. I did not. The Doctor went over to the house, and came in and told me Mr. Borden was dead. Soon
after that, Bridget came back.
Q. The second time?
A. She did. She rang my bell, and said Miss Lizzie wanted me to come over.
Q. Did you go over then?
A. I was delayed a few seconds, and then I went over.
Q. When you got over there, who did you see there?
A. Miss Lizzie Borden, Miss Alice Russell, Mrs. Churchill, Bridget Sullivan, and I do not remember
whether Mr. Sawyer was at the door when I went in. He was there when I came out.
Q. Where was Lizzie when you first went in?
A. She was sitting in the rocking chair in the kitchen.
Q. Were Miss Russell and Mrs. Churchill there with her?
A. Miss Russell was sitting in the chair beside her, on the edge of the chair, Miss Lizzie’s head was
leaning on Miss Russell’s shoulder.
Q. How near did you go to her?
A. I stood directly in front of her. Miss Russell was fanning her with a newspaper.
Q. Did she appear agitated?
A. She had her eyes closed, and her head on Miss Russell’s shoulder I thought perhaps she was faint.
She did not speak at first. Miss Russell asked me to wet the end of the towel, as she was bathing Miss
Lizzie’s face.
Q. Did you see any signs of blood on the towel after Miss Russell had bathed her face?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see any blood on her hands?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did Miss Russell bathe her hands?
A. No Sir. Miss Russell said “rub her hands”. Lizzie made the motion, no.
Q. Shook her head?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You saw her hair; was that disarranged, or not?
A. Not at all.
Q. It seemed as it usually did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How about her clothing, any spots of blood on it?
A. I saw none.
Q. What dress did she have on?
A. A blouse waist of blue material, with a white spray, I should say, running through it.
Q. A white spray?
A. I thought it was.
Page 480
Q. What was the body of the dress?
A. I did not notice particularly.
Q. The ground of the blouse, you say it had a white spray?
A. O, it was blue.
Q. Light or dark blue?
A. I should say quite a dark shade; I cannot tell; I was not looking for fashions then.
Q. Do you know what skirt she had on?
A. I do not. It was nothing more than an ordinary morning dress; I think I had seen her wear it before. I
only noticed the dress skirt.
Q. Something you had seen her wear frequently before?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. In the morning, or when?
A. In the morning when I have been in.
Q. How long did you stay?
A. I could not tell how long I stayed, a very short time.
Q. Did you go in to see the bodies at all?
A. I did not. They told me Mrs. Borden had been killed, Mrs. Churchill told me.
Q. That is all you knew about it?
A. I did not see anybody.
Q. Did you go away before Lizzie went into the dining room?
A. I came out just, I think, as she was going in. Miss Russell asked Lizzie if she would go into the dining
room, if she would take the chair in, as she thought it was cooler in that room. Somebody asked for a fan,
and Lizzie told Bridget to go into the dining room closet and get the fan. We went into the dining room. I
made a sound when they told me Mrs. Borden was dead. I sat in a chair back of Lizzie, where she was
sitting. Lizzie asked who this was that made the sound. They told her Mrs. Bowen.
Q. That sort of upset you when you heard Mrs. Borden was dead?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go home then?
A. Yes, they told me I was not fit to stay.
Q. Did you go into the house again that day?
A. I went as far as the back door, I did not go into the house; I did not go in that day.
Q. You go in often since.
A. Yes Sir.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
Q. (Mr. Knowlton) 10.55 you took notice of the time, five minutes of eleven; what had you been doing
that you noticed the time?
A. I was looking down the street watching for my daughter to come home; she had been away, I was
standing in my bay window, the window facing the north.
Q. How long had you been standing there?
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A. I had been watching some few moments, as I had been expecting her to come on a train, and was
watching for her to come from a horse car.
Q. Five or ten minutes?
A. I was back and forth from the window during that time.
Q. You watched ten or fifteen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is the north bay window?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is right opposite the Borden house?
A. My window is not exactly; my window is more opposite the Churchill house.
Q. A little further up the street?
A. Down the street.
Q. Further north?
A. Yes.
Q. The Borden house is in plain sight?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You did not see anybody come out of the Borden house while you were watching there, or go in?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or out or in the yard?
A. No Sir.
Q. Your windows were closed?
A. Yes Sir, and the blinds.
Q. You did not look through the blinds?
A. Yes, but I did not see anybody going in or out.
Q. You were in sight of the yard?
A. Yes Sir, I could see the yard.
Q. You was not watching the yard as closely as down street?
A. My attention was attracted down street.
Q. Whether you paid attention, or not, you did not see anybody go in or out of their yard?
A. No Sir, if I had had the blinds open—- I had my blinds closed so I could not see through them.
Q. So you could not see the yard at that time?
A. Not at that time.
Q. At that time you could not see the yard where you were at all?
A. No.
Q. So where you were standing that morning, watching for your daughter, you could not have seen,
without opening some blinds, you could not have seen the yard?
A. No Sir. I misunderstood you.
THIS ENDS VOLUME V AND ENDS THE PRELIMINARY HEARING.
Filed under:
Investigations & The Trial,
Legal & Forensics ![]()
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